Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Ken
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Ken »

Soloist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:06 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:20 pm
Soloist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 4:31 pm My pocketbook says US economy sucks. Is Russia worse? No. You can’t complain about inflation if you couldn’t afford it anyway :shock:
(Yeah Russia likely is worse for the commoner)
(Both countries war industry is likely doing well)
Russia has a median annual income of $5,504 which comes out to $459 per month or $2.86 per hour.

But yes, unemployment is low because they have a labor shortage due to conscripting half their youth into the meatgrinder that is the Ukraine war and seeing a million more flee the country.

Whether you think that is better or worse than the US depends I guess on your own personal circumstances.
Income doesn't matter by itself and is a pointless number unless you also show cost of living. Either way, I'm sure the common Russians are worse off then us
Most consumer goods from appliances to electronics to cars to fuel to food commodities are traded on a world market. So yes, having a low income means you are poor in any kind of modern international economy. That's why you see Russian soldiers doing things like looting washing machines to bring back home.

At present, Russia is basically Mexico in terms of population size and per-capita GDP. A more corrupt version of Mexico with worse food but with nuclear weapons. So yes, probably a very nice place to live if you have a lot of money, but not so prosperous if you are in the middle.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ernie

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Ernie »

From a strategic standpoint, not a non-resistant one, what do you think of this author's proposal for not letting Putin control everything he wants to?

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... r-00111752
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Soloist

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Soloist »

Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 4:18 pm From a strategic standpoint, not a non-resistant one, what do you think of this author's proposal for not letting Putin control everything he wants to?

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... r-00111752

It’s a pipe dream.
At the same time, if we’re honest, we have to acknowledge that Ukraine may not achieve total military success in the next year or two. Its counteroffensive is making progress, but slowly and painfully. The Russian military, though battered and demoralized, has remained resilient, even against advanced Western weapons and tactics. And Russia has a seemingly endless supply of young men whose lives it is willing to waste in this war.
It’s effectively turned into a stalemate and somehow believing that the US will give them whatever they need is a fantasy. 1: the US will not give them all they ask for and never will. 2: Ukraine will not declare a pause until Russia gives up its territory taken, or is driven back enough to be conquered. Even with that being said, The current leader is more likely to be leading a resistance movement from a safe country then surrender his nation.
The writer doesn’t explain what he means by integrating with western institutions either.
In this scenario, the United States would give the Ukrainian military whatever it needs to advance as far as possible in its counteroffensive. At an appropriate point next year, Ukraine would declare a pause in offensive military operations and shift its primary focus to defending and rebuilding liberated areas while integrating with Western institutions. Then, at its July, 2024 summit in

Washington, NATO would invite Ukraine to join the Western alliance, guaranteeing the security of all territory controlled by the Ukrainian government at that point under Article 5 of the NATO treaty.
NATO will not invite Ukraine to join as there are veto votes from Nations not wanting to risk war with Russia. Don’t believe all the propaganda Russia isn’t falling over as easily as people like to say it is. Better technology only works if you can capitalize on the advantage while you have it.
They are not advancing quickly enough and despite the negativity about Russian capabilities they do have more advanced weapons not being used. Russia is content to do a holding action and continue to do little probes to keep the war active. He’s right that Russia just needs to hold out until the rest of the world gets bored.
Let’s say somehow NATO does invite them to join, Ukraine is not going to be happy unless it has all its territory. Do the advanced technology and weapons continue to flow into Ukraine to support their ongoing war? I think that Russia would rightly see that as NATO joining the war. If you set an a line and say Russia cannot pass, and Russia can only play in the sandbox past it, yet we’re going to make sure your play bully has better weapons… we will see things get very ugly.
Honestly though I think it’s delusional to think NATO is going to invite them to join and get it voted through.
Nobody wants World War III and that’s how you do it. Russia either has to concede, Ukraine has to concede, or they need to formalize some sort of cease-fire with recognition on some level for taken territory for NATO to actually be involved.
One cannot forget the tiger on the mountain either. Our country is not eager to poke it and I see Russia becoming a second Nation to China and in many ways, they are a nastier North Korea to drain US resources.
This war isn’t about Ukraine anymore… it’s a proxy war of the West versus the east and if you think the west is going to win, you aren’t looking at the long game.
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AndersonD
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by AndersonD »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 5:27 pm
Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 4:18 pm From a strategic standpoint, not a non-resistant one, what do you think of this author's proposal for not letting Putin control everything he wants to?

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... r-00111752

It’s a pipe dream.
At the same time, if we’re honest, we have to acknowledge that Ukraine may not achieve total military success in the next year or two. Its counteroffensive is making progress, but slowly and painfully. The Russian military, though battered and demoralized, has remained resilient, even against advanced Western weapons and tactics. And Russia has a seemingly endless supply of young men whose lives it is willing to waste in this war.
It’s effectively turned into a stalemate and somehow believing that the US will give them whatever they need is a fantasy. 1: the US will not give them all they ask for and never will. 2: Ukraine will not declare a pause until Russia gives up its territory taken, or is driven back enough to be conquered. Even with that being said, The current leader is more likely to be leading a resistance movement from a safe country then surrender his nation.
The writer doesn’t explain what he means by integrating with western institutions either.
In this scenario, the United States would give the Ukrainian military whatever it needs to advance as far as possible in its counteroffensive. At an appropriate point next year, Ukraine would declare a pause in offensive military operations and shift its primary focus to defending and rebuilding liberated areas while integrating with Western institutions. Then, at its July, 2024 summit in

Washington, NATO would invite Ukraine to join the Western alliance, guaranteeing the security of all territory controlled by the Ukrainian government at that point under Article 5 of the NATO treaty.
This war isn’t about Ukraine anymore… it’s a proxy war of the West versus the east and if you think the west is going to win, you aren’t looking at the long game.
This war is still about Ukraine retaining their sovereignty. To say it's a proxy war is pointless. Russia invaded Ukraine and Ukraine is fighting a 500 lb guerrilla and giving it a bloody nose.

Read the article this morning. The third point is a good one, even Turkey is saying, "Get with NATO."

Another interesting article in the NYT today was about what CO's are facing in Ukraine.
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Soloist

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Soloist »

AndersonD wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:21 pm This war is still about Ukraine retaining their sovereignty. To say it's a proxy war is pointless. Russia invaded Ukraine and Ukraine is fighting a 500 lb guerrilla and giving it a bloody nose.

Read the article this morning. The third point is a good one, even Turkey is saying, "Get with NATO."

Another interesting article in the NYT today was about what CO's are facing in Ukraine.
If it’s not a proxy war, feel free to explain why world powers are supplying munitions on both sides. You do understand what a proxy war is right?
Without US and EU support, things would be looking very different.

Edit: besides, Ukraine sovereignty doesn’t change why we (USA) are actually supplying weapons.
Proxy war isn’t this terrible thing to say. The US actually has a great deal of interest in this lasting despite saying otherwise.
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Ken
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Ken »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:43 pm
AndersonD wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 6:21 pm This war is still about Ukraine retaining their sovereignty. To say it's a proxy war is pointless. Russia invaded Ukraine and Ukraine is fighting a 500 lb guerrilla and giving it a bloody nose.

Read the article this morning. The third point is a good one, even Turkey is saying, "Get with NATO."

Another interesting article in the NYT today was about what CO's are facing in Ukraine.
If it’s not a proxy war, feel free to explain why world powers are supplying munitions on both sides. You do understand what a proxy war is right?
Without US and EU support, things would be looking very different.

Edit: besides, Ukraine sovereignty doesn’t change why we (USA) are actually supplying weapons.
Proxy war isn’t this terrible thing to say. The US actually has a great deal of interest in this lasting despite saying otherwise.
By definition this is not a proxy war.

A proxy war would be a war in some country where BOTH sides are proxies for other powers. In other words, when two major powers are fighting each other through 3rd party proxies.

For example, Nicaragua was a proxy war between the US and the USSR with the US supporting the Nicaraguan Contras and the USSR supporting the Sandinistas. There were not American or Soviet soldiers on either side directly engaged in fighting. Advisors perhaps, but no actual troops.

The current war in Yemen is a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran with Saudi Arabia supporting the Republic of Yemen government side and Iran supporting the Houthi movement rebels. Saudi Arabia and Iran are not directly engaged in combat against each other. They are playing chess on a chessboard with Yemeni pieces. The Saudis may be giving air support to the Yemeni government and the Iranians are giving their own various forms of support such as drones and other weapons. But Saudi and Iranian troops are not directly engaged in battle against each other.

Ukraine is an imperialistic invasion of one nation by another. Completely different. It is absolutely no different than the Nazi invasion of France, or the Soviet invasion of Finland, or the Japanese invasion of Manchuria. None of those were proxy wars. They were wars of imperial conquest. Russia isn’t using any proxies in Ukraine. They are there in force doing the fighting. In 2014 they pretended to be engaged in a proxy war in the Donbas and Crimea. But even that was largely a farce and it was mostly actual Russian troops doing the fighting under false flags.

In every war of every type there are alliances. Even the Nazis and Japanese had allies. That doesn’t mean they are acting as proxies.

And yes, NATO, and by extension the US most definitely has an interest in seeing Ukraine win this war. But that is a completely separate subject from whether or not it is a proxy war.
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Josh

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Josh »

Ukraine’s treatment of COs is abominable and is reason enough alone for a sincere Christian to not support the regime there.

(Before anyone asks, I would levy the same charge at Russia, which has been true since the 1870s, the 1910s, the 1930s, on to the present day…)
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Soloist

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Soloist »

Is anyone else going to answer Ernie or are we just gonna argue over my opinion of what a proxy war is?
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Ken
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Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Ken »

Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 4:18 pm From a strategic standpoint, not a non-resistant one, what do you think of this author's proposal for not letting Putin control everything he wants to?

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... r-00111752
I read it and suspect it is a complete not-starter for several reasons.

First, Ukraine would have to cede territory to Russia which is probably a non-starter within Ukraine. That might have been possible 18 months ago, but after 18 months of Russian terrorism reigning death and destruction on Ukrainian cities, sentiment in Ukraine is something like 95-5 against ceding territory to Russia.

Second, Russia DOES need to agree. They can continue to blockade Ukrainian ports and bomb Ukrainian cities with drones and missiles endlessly. Just because Ukraine declares a cease fire along some existing front line doesn’t mean Russia will. Essentially this would be a bluff in which the US and NATO would be unilaterally declaring some new international border that didn’t exist previously and daring Russia not to cross it. What happens when Russia takes up that dare and sends shells or missiles across and say bombs a grain silo in Odessa or something like they are doing today. Is the US now at war with Russia?

Third, The US is not the only actor here. NATO has 32 member countries, all of which have different interests and points of view towards NATO. And they can, in fact, continue the war with or without the US. For example, just the Nordic and Baltic countries alone (Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, and the 3 small Baltic states on the Russian border have a combined economy that exceeds that of Russia. That doesn’t even count Central European countries like Poland and the Czech Republic who have their own fear of Russia and interest in seeing it defeated. And Turkey has always been an opponent of Russia. During the 19th Century of course, but more recently in places like Armenia and Azerbaijan where there is essentially a proxy war between Russia and Turkey happening. Turkey as a Black Sea power most definitely has a strategic interest in seeing Russia defeated, completely defeated. Because a Russian victory would turn the Black Sea into a Russian lake.

Fourth, it is in the interest of NATO to see the war continue. It might be bad for Ukrainians, but from the purely strategic geopolitical point of view, if Russia is going to immolate itself and destroy its army in Ukraine what’s not to like? The whole point of NATO is to defend against Russian expansionism. There is no other conceivable military threat to NATO than Russia. So if Russia wants to destroy its military capacity, why stop them? Far cheaper to just keep sending surplus arms to Ukraine. It is the best deal possible for NATO.

So while it might be a nice thought exercise. I don’t see this happening.

Of course that is just my own thoughts.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Josh »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2023 7:51 pm Is anyone else going to answer Ernie or are we just gonna argue over my opinion of what a proxy war is?
From a strategic standpoint, not a non-resistant one, what do you think of this author's proposal for not letting Putin control everything he wants to?
From whose strategic standpoint? I’ve noticed the new President in Brazil sure is cozy with Putin. As is the entire continent of Africa (and the situation with Niger is making them even cozier.)
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