I'm not racist, but....

[Josh]

No? What is the problem?

Were these cops "hijacked by the woke mob" as RZehr put it?

The problem is that they chose to commit violent despicable acts.

If they had done it to white people… would you feel that would make it somehow better?

[Ken]

No? What is the problem?

Were these cops "hijacked by the woke mob" as RZehr put it?

The problem is that they chose to commit violent despicable acts.

If they had done it to white people… would you feel that would make it somehow better?

The problem is that they were MOTIVATED BY RACISM to commit violent despicable acts.

Or do you have some explanation of this event that doesn't involve racism? I would love to hear it. From the NBC News article above:

On Jan. 24, the officers forcefully entered a house without a warrant and handcuffed and assaulted Jenkins and his friend Eddie Terrell Parker with stun guns, a sex toy and other objects. At the hearing Monday, the prosecution said the now former officers kicked in the doors of the victims' home and immediately began a 90-minute torture session during which they told the men to "stop taking advantage of a white woman who lived there," the prosecutor said.

The officers mocked the two men with racial slurs throughout the ordeal, repeatedly shocked them electricity volts via tasers, assaulted them with a vibrator, poured chocolate and syrup over their faces and then devised a cover-up after a game of Russian Roulette went bad and one of the victims was shot in the mouth, according to the prosecution.

The six officers schemed to plant drugs and a gun on one of the men and concocted a story that Jenkins was shot because he resisted and went for an officer's gun, justifying the shooting, prosecutors said.

. . . .

The civil rights charges followed an investigation by The Associated Press linking some of the officers to at least four violent encounters with Black men since 2019, which left two dead and another with lasting injuries. The Justice Department launched a civil rights probe into the case in February.

Rankin County’s majority-white suburbs have been one of several destinations for white flight out of the capital, Jackson, which is home to one of the highest percentages of Black residents of any major U.S. city.

The officers warned Jenkins and Parker, to “go back to Jackson or ‘their side’ of the Pearl River.” An attorney for the victims confirmed after court that the men received death threats from residents and have not been living in Mississippi.

Jenkins and Parker were targeted because a white neighbor complained that two Black men were staying at the home with a white woman, court documents show.

Parker was a childhood friend of the homeowner, Kristi Walley. She’s been paralyzed since she was 15, and Parker was helping care for her.

“He’s a blessing. Every time I’ve needed him he’s been here,” Walley said in a February interview. “There were times I’ve been living here by myself and I didn’t know what I was going to do.”

Jenkins still has difficulty speaking because of his injuries. The gunshot lacerated his tongue and broke his jaw before exiting his neck.

[GaryK]

No? What is the problem?

Were these cops "hijacked by the woke mob" as RZehr put it?

The problem is that they chose to commit violent despicable acts.

If they had done it to white people… would you feel that would make it somehow better?

The problem is that they were MOTIVATED BY RACISM to commit violent despicable acts.

I think upon first seeing this, I too, felt that they were probably motivated by racism. It definitely appears that racist things were said during the torture but why do we immediately assume they were motivated by racism to do what they did. Charging them with hate crimes would certainly be appropriate if racist motivation could be established. From what I'm reading, I don't think they were charged with that.

The reason I'm asking is because there was an almost identical case around the same time in Memphis, involving 5 black officers brutally beating and torturing Tyre Nichols who was also black and who later died from his injuries. What were they motivated by? If the black officers would have done the same thing to a white man and used racial slurs like the white officers did, would we immediately assume they were motivated by racism? I don't think I would.

[Josh]

The problem is that they were MOTIVATED BY RACISM to commit violent despicable acts.

Would it somehow be better if they did such things but weren't motivated by racism?

Or do you have some explanation of this event that doesn't involve racism? I would love to hear it. From the NBC News article above:

Yes, I do. These people decided to do despicable acts. "Racism" has nothing to do with it.

What is more disturbing is a viewpoint where violence is only bad if it's attributed to "racism" (alongside a viewpoint that only white people can be racist). In effect, violence by anyone who is non-white ends up being seen as "less bad". I think that's a very bad viewpoint (and is also effectively a racist one.)

[Ken]

The problem is that they were MOTIVATED BY RACISM to commit violent despicable acts.

Would it somehow be better if they did such things but weren't motivated by racism?

Or do you have some explanation of this event that doesn't involve racism? I would love to hear it. From the NBC News article above:

Yes, I do. These people decided to do despicable acts. "Racism" has nothing to do with it.

Seriously Josh?

Of course this was a racially motivated crime. There is no doubt whatsoever. The defendants admitted it in their attestations as part of their guilty pleas. Were they lying about that?

And yes, hate crimes are actually considered worse than ordinary random acts of violence. Because they are acts intended to break down the bonds between citizens and threaten a pluralistic society in ways that ordinary random acts of violence do not. That is exactly why they often merit additional sanction. Whether they are targeted at people because of race, religion, ethnicity, national origin, gender, sexuality, or any other reason.

What is more disturbing is a viewpoint where violence is only bad if it's attributed to "racism" (alongside a viewpoint that only white people can be racist). In effect, violence by anyone who is non-white ends up being seen as "less bad". I think that's a very bad viewpoint (and is also effectively a racist one.)

Well yes, that would be bad if anyone anywhere actually held that viewpoint. But here in the real world I suspect you can't actually find anyone who expresses such views. In the real world it is actually the opposite that is true. On average, crimes against White people are prosecuted more harshly than crimes against Black people. And on average, Black defendants are treated more harshly on average than White defendants for the same crimes

And yes, that is racist.

[Josh]

… merit additional sanction?

A quick perusal of crime statistics shows that per capita, black criminals choose white victims far more often than the inverse.

Is this due to “racism”? Should there be harsher punishments than if a black criminal chose a black victim?

What’s wrong with simply punishing crime regardless of race?

[Ken]

… merit additional sanction?

A quick perusal of crime statistics shows that per capita, black criminals choose white victims far more often than the inverse.

Is this due to “racism”? Should there be harsher punishments than if a black criminal chose a black victim?

What’s wrong with simply punishing crime regardless of race?

This disparity you cite is due to the fact that there are 5.5-times more White people in this country than Black people. So if crime is distributed randomly without respect to race, there will be 5.5-times more White victims than Black victims, regardless of the identity of the criminal.

People should be punished equally without respect to race. Unfortunately that doesn't happen in this country because of systemic racism. But it should be the ideal that we strive for.

In addition, people should also be punished for hate crimes without respect to race. Hate crimes are committed by all races and yes, they should be punished equally. Why would you assume that only White people commit hate crimes? That isn't remotely the case. At present, California is experiencing an increase of hate crimes against Asian-Americans committed by Black criminals. They should be punished as harshly as any other perpetrator of hate crimes.

This stuff really isn't that complicated.

[Josh]

… merit additional sanction?

A quick perusal of crime statistics shows that per capita, black criminals choose white victims far more often than the inverse.

Is this due to “racism”? Should there be harsher punishments than if a black criminal chose a black victim?

What’s wrong with simply punishing crime regardless of race?

This disparity you cite is due to the fact that there are 5.5-times more

Notice I said “per capita”.

White people in this country than Black people. So if crime is distributed randomly without respect to race, there will be 5.5-times more White victims than Black victims, regardless of the identity of the criminal.

That’s not how it actually works; most crime is between people of the same race. Inter-race crime is not random as you imply above.

At present, California is experiencing an increase of hate crimes against Asian-Americans committed by Black criminals. They should be punished as harshly as any other perpetrator of hate crimes.

So why does race matter at all? Why not simply punish criminals regardless of race?

[Ken]

So why does race matter at all? Why not simply punish criminals regardless of race?

You really don't get it do you? Hate crimes are not about the race of the criminal, they are about the motive of the criminal. And motive very much matters when it comes to distinguishing crimes. In a shooting incident, motive is the difference between an unfortunate accident, manslaughter, 2nd degree murder, or 1st degree murder.

Consider three identical crimes:

#1. Two men are drinking in a bar. One insults the other. The other one attacks him in response. The police show up, they arrest and charge the second guy for assault but it is just a common ordinary bar fight.

#2. Shop owner sees a guy shoplifting by stashing candy in his coat. It is the third time this week. He confronts the guy and "roughs him up" to "teach him a lesson" about never entering his store again. The police show up, arrest the guy for shoplifting but also consider whether to press assault charges against the shop owner.

#3. Some street hood is nursing a hatred of Asians because of the rabbit hole of hate he has descended into on the internet. He thinks they started COVID and wants to rid America of Asians. He sees an elderly Asian lady walking home from the market and attacks her while screaming racist obscenities, leaving her on the ground battered and bleeding.

Security cameras catch all three incidents. They are all clear cut cases of assault. Injuries are similar in all three cases. No questions about the facts of the cases. Will they be treated equally in the criminal justice system? No they will not. The assault on the elderly Asian lady is the far more heinous crime because of the motive. It isn't just some private conflict between two individuals. It is intended to create fear in the greater Asian community and generate hostility towards Asians. It is similar to terrorism in that respect. The DA understandably charges the 3rd criminal not just with simple assault, but with hate crimes as well. And he goes away for far longer than the assailants #1 and #2 who both engaged in the same exact act of assault. Both of whom are unlikely to serve any time at all.

In none of these cases does the race of the criminal have anything to do with the nature of the crime. The motive of the criminal is what elevated the third assault into a hate crime but not the other two. And that is why the third assault merited greater attention and punishment. Few people will think an injustice occurred if the drunk in the bar fight got probation, the shop owner got the charges dismissed, and the hood who assaulted the Asian lady goes away for 5 years. Regardless of what the races of the assailants were.

[Josh]

So why does race matter at all? Why not simply punish criminals regardless of race?

You really don't get it do you? Hate crimes are not about the race of the criminal, they are about the motive of the criminal. And motive very much matters when it comes to distinguishing crimes. In a shooting incident, motive is the difference between an unfortunate accident, manslaughter, 2nd degree murder, or 1st degree murder.

Yet race doesn’t change motive at all. It doesn’t matter why someone commits 1st degree murder. Premeditated is premeditated.

Consider three identical crimes:

#1. Two men are drinking in a bar. One insults the other. The other one attacks him in response. The police show up, they arrest and charge the second guy for assault but it is just a common ordinary bar fight.

#2. Shop owner sees a guy shoplifting by stashing candy in his coat. It is the third time this week. He confronts the guy and "roughs him up" to "teach him a lesson" about never entering his store again. The police show up, arrest the guy for shoplifting but also consider whether to press assault charges against the shop owner.

#3. Some street hood is nursing a hatred of Asians because of the rabbit hole of hate he has descended into on the internet. He thinks they started COVID and wants to rid America of Asians. He sees an elderly Asian lady walking home from the market and attacks her while screaming racist obscenities, leaving her on the ground battered and bleeding.

Security cameras catch all three incidents. They are all clear cut cases of assault. Injuries are similar in all three cases. No questions about the facts of the cases. Will they be treated equally in the criminal justice system? No they will not. The assault on the elderly Asian lady is the far more heinous crime because of the motive. It isn't just some private conflict between two individuals. It is intended to create fear in the greater Asian community and generate hostility towards Asians. It is similar to terrorism in that respect. The DA understandably charges the 3rd criminal not just with simple assault, but with hate crimes as well. And he goes away for far longer than the assailants #1 and #2 who both engaged in the same exact act of assault. Both of whom are unlikely to serve any time at all.

In none of these cases does the race of the criminal have anything to do with the nature of the crime. The motive of the criminal is what elevated the third assault into a hate crime but not the other two. And that is why the third assault merited greater attention and punishment. Few people will think an injustice occurred if the drunk in the bar fight got probation, the shop owner got the charges dismissed, and the hood who assaulted the Asian lady goes away for 5 years. Regardless of what the races of the assailants were.

The most common kind of “hate” crime then is black criminals attacking white victims (followed by black criminals attacking Asian victims). So if you are really so serious about “hate crimes” being a big deal, it seems you would want to do something about that.

Whereas Asian criminals attacking black victims is so rare, it doesn’t even show up as statistically significant in FBI crime statistics.