I'm not racist, but....

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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How racist are you, seriously?

1- Not at all.
4
19%
2-
2
10%
3-
4
19%
4-
2
10%
5- Most likely in some ways.
8
38%
6-
0
No votes
7-
0
No votes
8-
0
No votes
9
0
No votes
10- Yes sir! Full on! My jacked up pickup truck has a Confederate flag in the back window and everything!
1
5%
 
Total votes: 21

Ken
Posts: 21863
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Re: I'm not racist, but....

Post by Ken »

Soloist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:21 pmIf that was your claim I must have misread what I quoted from you.
An army that was implicated in countless human rights violations and atrocities before finally being defeated?
Are you seriously claiming that Confederate armies were not involved in human rights violations and atrocities?

Lee's army was involved in kidnapping hundreds of Americans and selling them into slavery during its Gettysburg campaign: https://emergingcivilwar.com/2020/05/06 ... -campaign/

Fort Pillow Massacre where hundreds of surrendering American troops were massacred by Nathan Bedford Forest's troops (who went on to found the KKK): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... w#Massacre

During the course of the war it was the policy of Confederate armies to sell captured Black troops into slavery or execute them: https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_ ... /sec19.htm
Late in 1862, Confederate president Jefferson Davis attempted to strike a fatal blow to the prospects of Union recruitment of African Americans. He ordered government forces to turn over any captured black troops to state authorities. The white officers would be tried according to state law for inciting servile insurrection; the runaways would return to slavery or suffer the death penalty, like their white officers. No proviso covered the capture of free blacks in Union uniform. As reinforcement, in late April and early May, the Confederate Congress passed a joint resolution, also calling for the death of white officers for inciting servile insurrection and the reenslavement of black soldiers.

Although this position may have comforted Southern whites, from a practical standpoint it was unworkable. Europeans, whom the Davis administration was courting for military assistance, found the policy offensive. And international law, as the Lincoln administration quickly pointed out, supported the position that these were legitimate soldiers and must receive the same rights as white prisoners of war. Lincoln vowed to retaliate man for man for executed Yankees, and for each black soldier the Confederacy returned to slavery, he would place a Rebel soldier at hard labor. Since there were more Confederate than Federal prisoners of war, Lincoln could ultimately outlast Davis.

In the end, the Davis administration backed down, but Confederate officers on the scene sometimes established their own policy. Either they refused to take black soldiers as prisoners or fought under the black flag, which indicated that they would take no prisoners, nor would they expect the Yankees to take any.

As a result, wartime atrocities against the USCT were commonplace, as Confederates hoped to discourage black enlistment and sought revenge for their contributions to the Union army. The first killings were isolated incidents. But as the war dragged on and Confederates became more and more frustrated, atrocities in battle escalated. In 1864, at Poison Springs. Arkansas, the Federals abandoned the field, leaving behind wounded soldiers, many of them from a black regiment. Eyewitnesses assured a Union colonel that Confederate troops murdered them on the spot. During the Battle of Saltville, Confederates executed numerous black troops who fell into their hands. Over the next two days, two separate parties of Confederate troops entered Rebel hospitals and executed seven wounded black soldiers in their beds.

. . .

On April 18, 1864, approximately 3,600 Confederate cavalry overran a forage train guarded by 1,170 Union troops at an obscure spot in southern Arkansas called Poison Springs. The 1st Kansas Colored Volunteer Infantry, the largest unit in the Union escort, bore the brunt of the Rebel assault and suffered heavily. Out of 438 officers and men engaged, the regiment lost 117 slain and 65 wounded. Several Federal survivors claimed they saw their victorious foes killing black prisoners, including men too badly injured to get away, which accounted for the fact that the 1st Kansas had nearly twice as many personnel killed as wounded—an unusual occurrence in Civil War combat.

Confederate participants confirmed these atrocity stories. "The havoc among the negroes had been tremendous," a Texas officer confided to his journal. "Over a small portion of the field we saw at least 40 dead bodies. . ., some scalped & nearly all stripped. . . . No black prisoners were taken." The editor of the Washington Telegraph, the mouthpiece of Confederate Arkansas, justified such merciless behavior in these terms: "We cannot treat negroes . . . as prisoners of war without a destruction of the social system for which we contend. . . . We must claim the full control of all negroes who may fall into our hands, to punish with death, or any other penalty."
This is a little far astray from the subject of the thread. But my actual point is that the Confederate flag was the flag of racism when it was first raised by the Confederate armies, and it continued to be the flag of racism when it was brought back from obscurity as the banner of segregation and opposition to civil rights during the mid-20th Century.
Last edited by Ken on Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Neto

Re: I'm not racist, but....

Post by Neto »

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:16 pm
... the American flag doesn't represent a nation premised on racism and defense of slavery. To the contrary.
Not the latter, slavery of Africans, but racism against the Indians. And from my experience living in the North (rather dated - the mid to late 70's), it appears that that prejudice against Indians remains.

In the historical period, no, they didn't enslave them, they 'just' sought to annihilate them through systematic genocide, using the military to do so. Then when that fell out of favor, they continued their efforts through "cultural and linguistic genocide".
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RZehr

Re: I'm not racist, but....

Post by RZehr »

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:16 pm I frankly don't fly the American flag either. But be that as it may, the American flag doesn't represent a nation premised on racism and defense of slavery. To the contrary.
Huh. I was sure that… we were told a minute ago that American was founded on the two original sins of racism and white supremacy.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: I'm not racist, but....

Post by Ken »

Neto wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:18 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:16 pm
... the American flag doesn't represent a nation premised on racism and defense of slavery. To the contrary.
Not the latter, slavery of Africans, but racism against the Indians. And from my experience living in the North (rather dated - the mid to late 70's), it appears that that prejudice against Indians remains.

In the historical period, no, they didn't enslave them, they 'just' sought to annihilate them through systematic genocide, using the military to do so. Then when that fell out of favor, they continued their efforts through "cultural and linguistic genocide".
Of course. I highlighted that as an obvious example.

I would suggest that the ideals of America as reflected in the Constitution are noble. The outlaw of slavery, equal protection for all under the 14th Amendment, Upholding Indian treaties as the highest law under the land under Article 6. But in practice we often fall far far short of those ideals.

That is in direct contrast to the Confederate cause which by their own words was premised on the exact opposite principles.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: I'm not racist, but....

Post by Ken »

RZehr wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:26 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:16 pm I frankly don't fly the American flag either. But be that as it may, the American flag doesn't represent a nation premised on racism and defense of slavery. To the contrary.
Huh. I was sure that… we were told a minute ago that American was founded on the two original sins of racism and white supremacy.
Ideals and reality often differ dramatically don't they?

The question for all of is is which side are we on? Because there are, indeed sides. Do we seek to uphold our ideals and follow the "better angles of our nature" to quote Abraham Lincoln? Or do we seek to whitewash our history and perpetuate those inequities? That is a choice all of us have.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Soloist

Re: I'm not racist, but....

Post by Soloist »

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:17 pm
Are you seriously claiming that Confederate armies were not involved in human rights violations and atrocities?
This was my claim.
Snort… you need to reread history books if you somehow think the side that lost committed more human right violations.
My challenge to you was to find
Hitler commissioned and ordered atrocities. I challenge you to find similar in the confederate political structure or their formal Military ranks.
Now to address your links.

Lee's army was involved in kidnapping hundreds of Americans and selling them into slavery during its Gettysburg campaign: https://emergingcivilwar.com/2020/05/06 ... -campaign/
I don’t know much on this, I’ll have to read it when I get home.
Fort Pillow Massacre where hundreds of surrendering American troops were massacred by Nathan Bedford Forest's troops (who went on to found the KKK): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... w#Massacre
Forest also didn’t accept the surrender. He was a butcher and not a very good example of any military member.

During the course of the war it was the policy of Confederate armies to sell captured Black troops into slavery or execute them: https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_ ... /sec19.htm
You could argue that this wasn’t war crimes but again, they lost so it became war crimes.
Late in 1862, Confederate president Jefferson Davis attempted to strike a fatal blow to the prospects of Union recruitment of African Americans. He ordered government forces to turn over any captured black troops to state authorities. The white officers would be tried according to state law for inciting servile insurrection; the runaways would return to slavery or suffer the death penalty, like their white officers. No proviso covered the capture of free blacks in Union uniform. As reinforcement, in late April and early May, the Confederate Congress passed a joint resolution, also calling for the death of white officers for inciting servile insurrection and the reenslavement of black soldiers.
See this is a reasonable example of what I challenged you to find.
Lincoln administration quickly pointed out, supported the position that these were legitimate soldiers and must receive the same rights as white prisoners of war. Lincoln vowed to retaliate man for man for executed Yankees, and for each black soldier the Confederacy returned to slavery, he would place a Rebel soldier at hard labor. Since there were more Confederate than Federal prisoners of war, Lincoln could ultimately outlast Davis.
Yup moral superiority there. An eye for an eye sort of policy which fits with my claim that there was atrocities on both sides.
In the end, the Davis administration backed down, but Confederate officers on the scene sometimes established their own policy. Either they refused to take black soldiers as prisoners or fought under the black flag, which indicated that they would take no prisoners, nor would they expect the Yankees to take any.
Brother against brother became a very gory savage war. This is an example though of a non formal adherence which leads to war crimes.

This is a little far astray from the subject of the thread. But my actual point is that the Confederate flag was the flag of racism when it was first raised by the Confederate armies, and it continued to be the flag of racism when it was brought back from obscurity as the banner of segregation and opposition to civil rights during the mid-20th Century.
You thought it was worth arguing about.

Now go read about the atrocities on the Union side. You can start with Sherman but there is more of course.
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Soloist

Re: I'm not racist, but....

Post by Soloist »

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:27 pm Of course. I highlighted that as an obvious example.

I would suggest that the ideals of America as reflected in the Constitution are noble. The outlaw of slavery, equal protection for all under the 14th Amendment, Upholding Indian treaties as the highest law under the land under Article 6. But in practice we often fall far far short of those ideals.

That is in direct contrast to the Confederate cause which by their own words was premised on the exact opposite principles.
Ken, why did the Union refuse to remove their troops from the fort? Why did Lincoln fight?
The South may have fought for the right to own slaves, but the Union didn’t go to war to free them.
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Josh

Re: I'm not racist, but....

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:27 pm
Neto wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:18 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 12:16 pm
... the American flag doesn't represent a nation premised on racism and defense of slavery. To the contrary.
Not the latter, slavery of Africans, but racism against the Indians. And from my experience living in the North (rather dated - the mid to late 70's), it appears that that prejudice against Indians remains.

In the historical period, no, they didn't enslave them, they 'just' sought to annihilate them through systematic genocide, using the military to do so. Then when that fell out of favor, they continued their efforts through "cultural and linguistic genocide".
Of course. I highlighted that as an obvious example.

I would suggest that the ideals of America as reflected in the Constitution are noble. The outlaw of slavery, equal protection for all under the 14th Amendment, Upholding Indian treaties as the highest law under the land under Article 6. But in practice we often fall far far short of those ideals.

That is in direct contrast to the Confederate cause which by their own words was premised on the exact opposite principles.
In what parallel universe was the Constitution an anti slavery document?
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: I'm not racist, but....

Post by Ken »

Soloist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:38 pmNow go read about the atrocities on the Union side. You can start with Sherman but there is more of course.
Sherman's armies were waging economic war on the south. That is true. They were not massacring Confederate prisoners or selling them into slavery. And, in fact, Sherman's armies were greatly slowed by the enormous masses of former slaves seeking their protection. It was also a march of liberation and tens of thousands of Americans greeted them with open arms and celebration: https://www.jstor.org/stable/40579903

Or do they not count because they were Black?
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: I'm not racist, but....

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:50 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:27 pm
Neto wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:18 pm

Not the latter, slavery of Africans, but racism against the Indians. And from my experience living in the North (rather dated - the mid to late 70's), it appears that that prejudice against Indians remains.

In the historical period, no, they didn't enslave them, they 'just' sought to annihilate them through systematic genocide, using the military to do so. Then when that fell out of favor, they continued their efforts through "cultural and linguistic genocide".
Of course. I highlighted that as an obvious example.

I would suggest that the ideals of America as reflected in the Constitution are noble. The outlaw of slavery, equal protection for all under the 14th Amendment, Upholding Indian treaties as the highest law under the land under Article 6. But in practice we often fall far far short of those ideals.

That is in direct contrast to the Confederate cause which by their own words was premised on the exact opposite principles.
In what parallel universe was the Constitution an anti slavery document?
The one that includes the 13th Amendment. Why do you look it up and tell us what it says.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
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