How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

[Josh]

How sad to read of all these splits amongst people who supposedly believe that Jesus is the way to salvation. I don't see any biblical support to split off from one church to another over sanctification issues.

The Bible explicitly says not to go to communion (or even eat with a person) who continues to choose to live in a state of unrepentant sin.

And often these differences are not things explicitly stated in scripture but rather man's views on what it means to be separated from the world. Scripture does not use the words 'conservative', 'intermediate', 'transitional' or 'liberal' when referring to believers. Rather words relating to personal Christian growth within one church beginning with babes in Christ and what this means. It is about maturing as believers in a local church group as a group is patient and encouraging one another in the Lord. So, it seems to me all this churchianity splitting is living in disobedience and what God told the Corinthian church to stay away from.

As I have noted, I think transitional Anabaptism is a bad thing, and I don't think a church should be transitional, nor have an identity as "conservative","liberal", and so on. However, we need to acknowledge that such realities exist. The Bible never refers to churches that have buildings made out of red bricks, yet down the street from me is a red-brick building church. Such a church is real and exists.

So, go ahead, tell me I need to look at this differently as I find it quite puzzling.

The main reason I am against transitional Anabaptism is because I think it is an impediment to sharing the gospel and discipling new believers.

[ohio jones]

So, go ahead, tell me I need to look at this differently as I find it quite puzzling.

Do you have an answer to the question in the thread title?

[Sudsy]

So, go ahead, tell me I need to look at this differently as I find it quite puzzling.

Do you have an answer to the question in the thread title?

Yes, I already answered that. Join the Pentecostals. A few times I have witnessed a Pentecostal leaving one Pentecostal church for another but that was not on doctrine or practise. Sometimes they just can't get along with someone. And one other case where a UPC (non-trinitarian) left to join a trinitarian Pentecostal and I suppose this has happened the other way around too.

This transfering up and down the scale of sanctification, I believe is mainly an Anabaptist phenomena.

[Heirbyadoption]

Josh - as you seem to be similarly acquainted with some of the local folks, such as those at CityLight, did you have anything particular in mind that would constitute the "positive values of W/F" which you are suggesting they should consider embracing?

City Light is a transitional group. One of the positive values of WF is not being a transitional group...My contention with City Light is (a) zero plan or awareness they are on a trajectory to end up like that and (b) the fact they WILL end up like that in 10-20 years.

Not meaning to badger, but being pretty well acquainted with both WashCo and CityLight folks here (we attend each of them from time to time), I'm still really curious what other positive values of the W/F group you had in mind that CL should consider embracing. Or were you simply speaking generally, while essentially only referring to W/F's "non-transitional group" status? Thanks.

[Sudsy]

How sad to read of all these splits amongst people who supposedly believe that Jesus is the way to salvation. I don't see any biblical support to split off from one church to another over sanctification issues.

The Bible explicitly says not to go to communion (or even eat with a person) who continues to choose to live in a state of unrepentant sin.

Yes, but this was not a church split to another church. Rather it was dealing with someone in a local church.

And often these differences are not things explicitly stated in scripture but rather man's views on what it means to be separated from the world. Scripture does not use the words 'conservative', 'intermediate', 'transitional' or 'liberal' when referring to believers. Rather words relating to personal Christian growth within one church beginning with babes in Christ and what this means. It is about maturing as believers in a local church group as a group is patient and encouraging one another in the Lord. So, it seems to me all this churchianity splitting is living in disobedience and what God told the Corinthian church to stay away from.

As I have noted, I think transitional Anabaptism is a bad thing, and I don't think a church should be transitional, nor have an identity as "conservative","liberal", and so on. However, we need to acknowledge that such realities exist. The Bible never refers to churches that have buildings made out of red bricks, yet down the street from me is a red-brick building church. Such a church is real and exists.

So, go ahead, tell me I need to look at this differently as I find it quite puzzling.

The main reason I am against transitional Anabaptism is because I think it is an impediment to sharing the gospel and discipling new believers.

I agree this doesn't help the cause.

My personal belief on the number one 'impediment to sharing the gospel and discipling new believers' is that some Anabaptists have an understanding of being separate from the world ('come out from among them') that takes things that are not scripturally defined sinning and makes them into Christ following requirements and their habits of being set apart from the world includes not mingling with sinners enough to share the Gospel. To me, things like must drive a black car or a horse and buggy or wearing specific required clothing and various other church rules and expectations, are not the types of things the early church was identified with in being separate from the world.

It seems to me the early Christian witness was about what the Gospel does to a man that produces good works that bring glory to God. A love for all mankind and a caring for their souls. When Christianity is more about what you give up than it is on what you take on (what Jesus called an 'abundant life'), then it smacks more of religion than relationship with God.

On the other end of the scale is watering down the life changing belief in the Gospel to make it into something that is not life changing but is some means to end up in heaven when you die. Both extremes are impediments to the Gospel represented in the NT, imo.

[Josh]

So, go ahead, tell me I need to look at this differently as I find it quite puzzling.

Do you have an answer to the question in the thread title?

Yes, I already answered that. Join the Pentecostals. A few times I have witnessed a Pentecostal leaving one Pentecostal church for another but that was not on doctrine or practise. Sometimes they just can't get along with someone. And one other case where a UPC (non-trinitarian) left to join a trinitarian Pentecostal and I suppose this has happened the other way around too.

This transfering up and down the scale of sanctification, I believe is mainly an Anabaptist phenomena.

I have yet to find a Pentecostal church that teaches that killing other humans is wrong.

[Josh]

Josh - as you seem to be similarly acquainted with some of the local folks, such as those at CityLight, did you have anything particular in mind that would constitute the "positive values of W/F" which you are suggesting they should consider embracing?

City Light is a transitional group. One of the positive values of WF is not being a transitional group...My contention with City Light is (a) zero plan or awareness they are on a trajectory to end up like that and (b) the fact they WILL end up like that in 10-20 years.

Not meaning to badger, but being pretty well acquainted with both WashCo and CityLight folks here (we attend each of them from time to time), I'm still really curious what other positive values of the W/F group you had in mind that CL should consider embracing. Or were you simply speaking generally, while essentially only referring to W/F's "non-transitional group" status? Thanks.

That is the main value I see, yes, and one I wish folks like CL thought was worth embracing.

Part of my perspective is enduring making friends with people in a group like CL 9 years ago and then witnessing how things are now… to be frank it’s sad to watch people who used to be quite plain become more worldly than the Holdemans. And it just seems inevitable. Let me go over a roster of friends I’ve had over the years:

- enlisted in the Air Force
- enlisted in the PA academy to become a state trooper
- got a thigh tattoo (proudly displayed on social media)
- acquired a large quantity of handguns and ammunition. (Confession: I did sell some of my firearms to that individual.)
- Abandon the covering, apply makeup
- Become obsessed with “Q”, posting all manner of right wing clickbait conspiracy theories like how the moon landing is faked
- begin drinking heavily (confession: I got hammered with those folks a few times too)

The list goes on and on. The absurdity is how groups like CL facilitate the transition, unwittingly.

For the record I have never perceived GBs in the present era as being particularly transitional-Anabaptists.

[Ernie]

Not meaning to badger, but being pretty well acquainted with both WashCo and CityLight folks here (we attend each of them from time to time), I'm still really curious what other positive values of the W/F group you had in mind that CL should consider embracing. Or were you simply speaking generally, while essentially only referring to W/F's "non-transitional group" status? Thanks.

I'll share a few things...

I think that the W/F men have a much more robust concept of non-conformity in attire than what is often evidenced at City Light. I have no problem with what the City Light people wear in particular but more concerned about...
1. The women needing to carry the bulk of the non-conformity.
2. The ease with which some people leave the disciplines of their heritage and adopt the garb of transitional churches.

I'm always concerned about young men and women starting new churches in the backyard of the one they left, without having a multitude of counselors around them, and helping to guide the process. Especially if the middle-aged ones among them tended to be on the fence in the church they left.
I can understand why City Light did not want W/F members to be their counselors but from what I understand, that did not have an active team of counselors that were helping them make a good start and thoughtful transition.

Functionally, the mission of City Light seems to primarily be a place for people wanting to leave traditional churches. W/F does not have this mission.

[Heirbyadoption]

City Light is a transitional group. One of the positive values of WF is not being a transitional group...My contention with City Light is (a) zero plan or awareness they are on a trajectory to end up like that and (b) the fact they WILL end up like that in 10-20 years.

Not meaning to badger, but being pretty well acquainted with both WashCo and CityLight folks here (we attend each of them from time to time), I'm still really curious what other positive values of the W/F group you had in mind that CL should consider embracing. Or were you simply speaking generally, while essentially only referring to W/F's "non-transitional group" status? Thanks.

That is the main value I see, yes, and one I wish folks like CL thought was worth embracing.

Part of my perspective is enduring making friends with people in a group like CL 9 years ago and then witnessing how things are now… to be frank it’s sad to watch people who used to be quite plain become more worldly than the Holdemans. And it just seems inevitable. Let me go over a roster of friends I’ve had over the years:

- enlisted in the Air Force
- enlisted in the PA academy to become a state trooper
- got a thigh tattoo (proudly displayed on social media)
- acquired a large quantity of handguns and ammunition. (Confession: I did sell some of my firearms to that individual.)
- Abandon the covering, apply makeup
- Become obsessed with “Q”, posting all manner of right wing clickbait conspiracy theories like how the moon landing is faked
- begin drinking heavily (confession: I got hammered with those folks a few times too)

The list goes on and on. The absurdity is how groups like CL facilitate the transition, unwittingly.

Josh - That makes more sense. Thanks. So have you seen CL facilitate these sort of shifts and choices over the last nine years, or are you presuming that will be the inevitable result, perhaps?

I'll share a few things...

I think that the W/F men have a much more robust concept of non-conformity in attire than what is often evidenced at City Light. I have no problem with what the City Light people wear in particular but more concerned about...
1. The women needing to carry the bulk of the non-conformity.
2. The ease with which some people leave the disciplines of their heritage and adopt the garb of transitional churches.

I'm always concerned about young men and women starting new churches in the backyard of the one they left, without having a multitude of counselors around them, and helping to guide the process. Especially if the middle-aged ones among them tended to be on the fence in the church they left. I can understand why City Light did not want W/F members to be their counselors but from what I understand, that did not have an active team of counselors that were helping them make a good start and thoughtful transition.

Functionally, the mission of City Light seems to primarily be a place for people wanting to leave traditional churches. W/F does not have this mission.

I have come to love some of the W/F folks dearly in the 8 years we have been here. There are some wonderful, godly people there. Having said that, though - I'm inclined to have a lot of grace for kids like the bunch at CL, because the rather blatant spirit of condescension, condemnation and rudeness that is often perceived from a lot of W/F folks (and yes, also some of the folks in a few of the other Plainer groups here locally) has been unfortunate in its effect of driving renewal groups like CL away from perhaps effectively considering some of the values of where they came from. There are a lot more factors and history, I realize, but the damage to the Plain testimony of the Cumberland Valley really has been immeasurable... If ever there was a place to get disillusioned on Plain culture, this might be it. In spite of all that, I do wonder if groups like CL can persist a generation or two, whether some of that reactionism may have a chance to settle and allow them to reconsider their grounding a little more and perhaps address some of the transitional concerns mentioned in earlier posts...

[Josh]

I have a friend of mine who is a sincere believer and lives a fully Anabaptist lifestyle. He and I got acquainted 9 years ago.

He lives in Akron (a city) and has transformed the block he lives on. He knows his neighbours and gets to know their children, helping them with summer jobs and so on as they get older. He has literally turned a rough part of town into a nice street to live on.

He has been trying to find an Anabaptist church but so far just keeps visiting transitional groups an hour away. (The closest Anabaptist church is a Serbian Apostolic church 25 minutes away, which has a rather heavy ethnic culture, although I personally like it.) None of the people in these churches he has visited are interested in doing ministry where he lives, conducting Bible studies, prayer meetings, distributing tracts and so on - even though they send missionaries to countries thousands of miles away.

He has been literally begging for good solid “conservative” families to move to the area he is in and minister with him. They are willing to make changes to be part of a church, although at this point there are no changes they need to make to be part of a typical Charity type of church.”

So, I am puzzled why people like City Light establish church in Franklin County, which already has many Anabaptist churches. It seems if they were sincere, they would instead go to a “green field” like Akron above, work with seekers and pursue members who are not from a W/F background. It also seems they could pursue oversight and counsel from people in the W/F church they left.