How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Neto

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Neto »

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 11:28 am ... “transitional Anabaptist churches” ... source members from more conservative groups and in turn lose members to less conservative groups.
NOTE: Josh didn't say exactly this. I edited his post to make it a general statement. I THINK he would agree, but please don't blame him - If he doesn't agree with the above, then cut him some slack. Blame it on me.

That said, our congregation's growth is almost entirely from the Amish orders. A very few come straight from Swartzentrubers. (Most Swartzentrubers would go first to the Old Order, then maybe "stop off" in the New Order for a time. An Old Order Bishop with whom I used to work, his wife thought that when they left the Swatrzentrubers for the Old Older Amish, that they could then have TV. This was about 17 or 18 years ago, and as far as I know, they are still in the OO Amish.) Many come from the Old Order, but not exactly. They are the children of OO Amish parents, but they themselves had never joined any congregation previous to ours. (Two of our current ministers fall in this category.) Others slowly work their way out of a very strict Old Order Amish district by first moving to another (less strict) OO district, then to the New Order, and finally to our congregation. I don't think they have this plan in mind when they start moving, just like those that move on from our congregation probably for the most part at least, don't have this idea in mind when they come. There are two brothers in our congregation who are an example of how this works. They both left the strict OO Amish district where they grew up after marriage, so they were members. One left directly from there, and was put in the ban - this was all at least over 20 years ago, and they have not been released. The other couple left first for the New Order, then later left there for an even less strict congregation, possibly directly to our congregation. They were never put in the ban at all.

What I will emphasize in all of this is the importance of teaching. Teaching that develops personal conviction, and satisfaction with less than just doing whatever they want, as long as it isn't strictly forbidden, or, for some, if they can get away with it. (Like the OO Amishman who said that he uses disposable cameras, so that he "just doesn't have a camera twice a year". Reminds me of the custom in the Jewish colony near the Molotschna Mennonite colony in present day Ukraine, to "temporarily" sell all of their forbidden goods to a non-Jew prior to Passover, with the agreement that he could buy it back afterwards. Another businessman bypassed all of that, by "discarding" all such merchandise out in the woods close to the river, then retrieved it later. Some non-Jews played a trick on him by moving it while it was in its "discarded state". And no, I'm not picking on the Jews. Our own people do this same sort of things. Are we more "At peace with God & man" twice a year than the rest of the time? Only personal conviction can deal with this problem.) "Freedom", if there is not personal responsibility and conviction taught and developed at some point, will *usually* generate a desire for more and more "freedom". Eventually this become "license".
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Josh

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Josh »

Neto,

That is precisely the problem I am talking about.

There are a lot of lost people including some who are seeking real spiritual growth and an experience with the Lord, including in Holmes County and in other counties. Why not fill up our churches with those people? We could start by focusing on people who aren't currently attending a church at all.
They both left the strict OO Amish district where they grew up after marriage, so they were members. One left directly from there, and was put in the ban - this was all at least over 20 years ago, and they have not been released. The other couple left first for the New Order, then later left there for an even less strict congregation, possibly directly to our congregation. They were never put in the ban at all.
Some of the New Order Amish are tired of being used as such a "stopping over place" and are considering taking action to prevent this.
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Heirbyadoption

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 8:15 pmIt is painfully obvious that W/F churches that are still very plain/conservative are indeed the origin of the majority of the rest of the conservative groups. The rest of the conservative groups seem to have no insight about this: they never stop to consider that perhaps they should embrace the positive values of W/F instead of simply being transitional groups, even as they are busy denouncing people less conservative than they are.

I would, for example, be willing to point the finger at City Light in that list: never before have I encountered a group of people with cultural barriers so thick to outsiders, yet with almost no awareness that such barriers exist. (For example, they all seem to speak with a distinct accent. Perhaps W/F people have their own accent?) Nearly every person is from a W/F background. So why have they chosen to disaffiliate from W/F? What future does the group hold? Unfortunately, we can almost reliably predict based on past experience with... every other group that has gone in this direction.
As I personally interact with the majority of the groups on the Franklin County / Cumberland Valley list a couple pages back, and particularly a lot of WashCo (aka W/F) folks on a nearly daily basis, the comments from several posters have have been fascinating. We attend services at several of these groups occasionally, and have some close friends among several of them as well. Josh - as you seem to be similarly acquainted with some of the local folks, such as those at CityLight, did you have anything particular in mind that would constitute the "positive values of W/F" which you are suggesting they should consider embracing?
Last edited by Heirbyadoption on Mon Jul 24, 2023 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: remove reference to deleted post
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mike

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by mike »

Heirbyadoption wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 4:46 pmAs I personally interact with the majority of the groups on the Franklin County / Cumberland Valley list a couple pages back, and particularly a lot of WashCo (aka W/F) folks on a nearly daily basis, the comments from several posters have have been fascinating. We attend services at several of these groups occasionally, and have some close friends among several of them as well. Josh - as you seem to be similarly acquainted with some of the local folks, such as those at CityLight, did you have anything particular in mind that would constitute the "positive values of W/F" which you are suggesting they should consider embracing?
I'm not Josh but one of the values I would highlight in particular is their emphasis on voluntary poverty




:cough:
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cooper
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2022 7:08 pm
Affiliation: LMC

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by cooper »

mike wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 7:34 am The Cumberland Valley churches (Strasburg, Rowe, etc.) that split from the W/F conference might have a few W/F people join recently but not as many. Again I wouldn't say that their origins are from the W/F churches of today, but that they share common roots with them. The W/F churches have moved to be more conservative since the days prior to that split, while the CV churches remained much as they were back then. That's my understanding anyway.
Yes, W-F have moved right. For example, in the early days of Paradise school, they had teachers from Lancaster Conference and John D. Martin would have taught there when he was Cumberland Valley I believe. Hiring teachers from such "liberal" groups would be unthinkable today. Although perhaps a bit less harsh in certain respects than Mose Horst. Members who transition to Cumberland Valley are not excommunicated like they were in the 1960s.

I think Mose Horst's harshness and (in my opinion) his abuse of power alienated the now Cumberland Valley churches. A different leader may have allowed conservative Maryland and Pennsylvania churches to stay together. W-F would be a bit less conservative and now-Cumberland Valley would be a bit more conservative. However, I think differences in eschatology would have been a conflict between the Maryland and conservative Pennsylvania churches. Some Franklin County preachers were strong premillennialist in a way that Washington County could not stomach. Their discipline includes a line about "not speculating about end times."
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joshuabgood

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by joshuabgood »

cooper wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 6:06 pm
mike wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 7:34 am The Cumberland Valley churches (Strasburg, Rowe, etc.) that split from the W/F conference might have a few W/F people join recently but not as many. Again I wouldn't say that their origins are from the W/F churches of today, but that they share common roots with them. The W/F churches have moved to be more conservative since the days prior to that split, while the CV churches remained much as they were back then. That's my understanding anyway.
Yes, W-F have moved right. For example, in the early days of Paradise school, they had teachers from Lancaster Conference and John D. Martin would have taught there when he was Cumberland Valley I believe. Hiring teachers from such "liberal" groups would be unthinkable today. Although perhaps a bit less harsh in certain respects than Mose Horst. Members who transition to Cumberland Valley are not excommunicated like they were in the 1960s.

I think Mose Horst's harshness and (in my opinion) his abuse of power alienated the now Cumberland Valley churches. A different leader may have allowed conservative Maryland and Pennsylvania churches to stay together. W-F would be a bit less conservative and now-Cumberland Valley would be a bit more conservative. However, I think differences in eschatology would have been a conflict between the Maryland and conservative Pennsylvania churches. Some Franklin County preachers were strong premillennialist in a way that Washington County could not stomach. Their discipline includes a line about "not speculating about end times."
Ah the old divisive eschatalogical questions....good thing those days are gone :/...
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Marylander
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:02 pm
Affiliation: Alien

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Marylander »

cooper wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 6:06 pm
mike wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 7:34 am The Cumberland Valley churches (Strasburg, Rowe, etc.) that split from the W/F conference might have a few W/F people join recently but not as many. Again I wouldn't say that their origins are from the W/F churches of today, but that they share common roots with them. The W/F churches have moved to be more conservative since the days prior to that split, while the CV churches remained much as they were back then. That's my understanding anyway.
Yes, W-F have moved right. For example, in the early days of Paradise school, they had teachers from Lancaster Conference and John D. Martin would have taught there when he was Cumberland Valley I believe. Hiring teachers from such "liberal" groups would be unthinkable today. Although perhaps a bit less harsh in certain respects than Mose Horst. Members who transition to Cumberland Valley are not excommunicated like they were in the 1960s.

I think Mose Horst's harshness and (in my opinion) his abuse of power alienated the now Cumberland Valley churches. A different leader may have allowed conservative Maryland and Pennsylvania churches to stay together. W-F would be a bit less conservative and now-Cumberland Valley would be a bit more conservative. However, I think differences in eschatology would have been a conflict between the Maryland and conservative Pennsylvania churches. Some Franklin County preachers were strong premillennialist in a way that Washington County could not stomach. Their discipline includes a line about "not speculating about end times."
"Not speculating in unfulfilled prophecy such as the doctrine of the literal reign of Christ" Preachers from other groups are forbidden from speaking on it.

A good friend told me that he is not sure how a premillenialist will be in heaven due to their "militaristic views". Move over German Baptist!

A Hutterite minister told me he didn't have a problem getting dunked, but found the GB's views on the next life beyond the pale.
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Heirbyadoption

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Marylander wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 12:23 amA good friend told me that he is not sure how a premillenialist will be in heaven due to their "militaristic views". Move over German Baptist!

A Hutterite minister told me he didn't have a problem getting dunked, but found the GB's views on the next life beyond the pale.
"Beyond the pale..." :laugh Marylander, I have to thank you for this. :lol: I needed a chuckle this morning. As an unashamedly professing premillennialist and as perhaps the predominant OGBB poster on here (now that Queserasera doesn't post much), I'd be fascinated to hear about what your friend considers "militaristic views".

Having said that, OGBBs (the main 3 or 4 conferences, anyway) have generally had a pretty significant variety of eschatological positions among them (from premill to prewrath to postmill to outright replacement theology and the occasional random preterist), rather than being being a solidly pre-mill group by any means. Gerneally speaking, we've never historically fallen for the usual Anabaptist amillennial scheme, but we've always had strong exhortations to be humble if/when we preach on eschatalogical topics, and to have much grace with each other. Historically, it seems to have worked for the most part. Final Restoration theology, on the other hand, got divisive enough back around the late 1800s / early 1900s that our fellowship DID agree nobody should preach or write on it for awhile.
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Josh

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Josh »

Heirbyadoption wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 4:46 pmJosh - as you seem to be similarly acquainted with some of the local folks, such as those at CityLight, did you have anything particular in mind that would constitute the "positive values of W/F" which you are suggesting they should consider embracing?
City Light is a transitional group.

One of the positive values of WF is not being a transitional group.

The world doesn’t need another Charity group trying to recreate early 2000s Charity, which will inevitably become present-day Charity.

The latest “news” I heard from a friend who has been attending a Charity group is that (a) dating couples now freely touch, hug, arms around each other, etc., and (b) regularly switch into PA Dutch from the pulpit, with seemingly no regard to regular attenders who only speak English.

This is a toxic combination of being an extreme ethnic enclave church whilst at the same time becoming a very worldly church. I can’t imagine anything farther from the kingdom of heaven.

My contention with City Light is (a) zero plan or awareness they are on a trajectory to end up like that and (b) the fact they WILL end up like that in 10-20 years.
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Sudsy

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Sudsy »

How sad to read of all these splits amongst people who supposedly believe that Jesus is the way to salvation. I don't see any biblical support to split off from one church to another over sanctification issues. What a mess Anabaptists have got themselves into. Meanwhile, how many of these splits to 'become better Christ followers' is resulting in reaching the unsaved ? Seems to me very few. If Jesus came to seek and to save those who are lost and we are to follow in His steps, why all this inside churchianity warring ? I thought Paul shot this down in one of his letters to the Corinthians.

And often these differences are not things explicitly stated in scripture but rather man's views on what it means to be separated from the world. Scripture does not use the words 'conservative', 'intermediate', 'transitional' or 'liberal' when referring to believers. Rather words relating to personal Christian growth within one church beginning with babes in Christ and what this means. It is about maturing as believers in a local church group as a group is patient and encouraging one another in the Lord. So, it seems to me all this churchianity splitting is living in disobedience and what God told the Corinthian church to stay away from.

Imo, satan really doesn't care much on how set apart a believer tries to become as long as they don't live in a way that draws others to Jesus. As long as we are not true light and salt in this world. Extra-biblical church rules to be able to fellowship with other believers and live separated from the world, I believe drives more people away from God than to Him. They either see religion at work or will sense the convicting power of the Holy Spirit to turn to the Saviour.

So, go ahead, tell me I need to look at this differently as I find it quite puzzling.
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