How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Neto

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Neto »

Soloist wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:20 am
mike wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:18 am
Do you think there are plain groups other than the old orders which have been similarly insular, but not as long, who will develop more of these sorts of genetic disorders in the coming years?
I think it’s very clear that historical record would support that.
In my heritage, the ministers saw this as an issue already in the mid 1800's, and "outlawed" cousin marriages. I do not recall now to what degree, but I think that it included 2nd cousins. (It is interesting that the Banawa somehow 'knew' that cross cousin marriage is much more safe than parallel cousin marriage. They consider parallel cousins to be siblings.)
There are common "Plautdietsch disorders" that have resulted from the isolation we experienced in the past. My parents are, as I recall, 3rd or 4th cousins once removed, even though they came from different colony heritages. I have Ledderhose disease/syndrome, a type of fibromatosis that affects the foot. A couple of my brothers (and my sister, I think) have Dupuytren's contracture, which is probably even more common in my background. (My 2nd oldest brother had the surgery around 5 years ago, because his hand was curling up quite a bit already.) Most of us also wore glasses from a very early age.
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Marylander
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Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Marylander »

Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:09 am
Soloist wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 8:26 am It’s interesting that there are genetic consequences for not having outsiders join or marry in.
I say that genetic disorders are sometimes a punishment for being to ingrown.
Ouch.
I have a very good friend who is related to almost everyone in his group. He was doing some serious thinking on account of fathering children with, in his case, hearing impairments. It's not just an insular group problem, there were Quakers who married their 2nd cousins and I wouldn't view them as ingrown. Also, I know one couple who had a genetic disorder in their background and obtained genetic testing to make sure they weren't carriers. The tests were negative and they had a child, but the child has an extremely rare condition unrelated to the one in their backgrounds. They feel terrible.
Last edited by Marylander on Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ken
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Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Ken »

Neto wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 12:50 pmIn my heritage, the ministers saw this as an issue already in the mid 1800's, and "outlawed" cousin marriages. I do not recall now to what degree, but I think that it included 2nd cousins. (It is interesting that the Banawa somehow 'knew' that cross cousin marriage is much more safe than parallel cousin marriage. They consider parallel cousins to be siblings.)
Is this actually true? I could see as how it would be for sex-linked traits carried on the X or Y chromosome. But for any recessive disorders that occur on any of the other 22 chromosomes? I don’t see how that could be the case.

In any event, I think the real problem with cousin marriage is not if it just happens once within a population that has high genetic diversity, But rather, if it continues generation after generation within a population that has low genetic diversity. Then you can reach a state where 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th cousins might have as much genetic similarity with each other as 1st cousins would have in a more genetically diverse population.
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Sliceitup
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Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Sliceitup »

mike wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:18 am
Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:09 am
Soloist wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 8:26 am It’s interesting that there are genetic consequences for not having outsiders join or marry in.
I say that genetic disorders are sometimes a punishment for being to ingrown.
But a minister in one such setting thought of it as a small price to pay for keeping the church separated from the world (and from other Anabaptist conferences/fellowships who might introduce new ideas or traditions.)
Do you think there are plain groups other than the old orders which have been similarly insular, but not as long, who will develop more of these sorts of genetic disorders in the coming years?
Are there any plain groups other than the Old Orders that don’t have significant feeder groups? Just anecdotally, it appears to me that most plain groups are constantly having members join from plainer churches. Basically what this thread is about.
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Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Marylander »

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:42 pm
Sudsy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 4:40 pm Yes, it is pretty common that believers will look for a church home that best fits with their lifestyle and where they can be accepted as part of that community. Our local main Pentecostal church and our local Mennonite Brethren church have quite a range of attenders when it comes to sanctification. They just don't follow the Anabaptist habit of splitting over issues they don't see as God requirements.
My church doesn’t do these “splits” either. One of my criticisms of “transitional Anabaptist churches” is that they make the church split problem significantly worse.
The splits started with the Reformed, Stauffer, and Holdemans. Before that the Old Mennonite church was much less tribal, for instance individuals from VA or WF married someone from Franconia or vice versa. Or someone in Lancaster married someone in WF or Franconia. Thank you Mr Herr, Mr Stauffer, and Mr Holdeman...all goes back to being spiritually enlightened. Screws everything up.
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mike

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by mike »

Sliceitup wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:22 pm
mike wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:18 am
Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:09 am
I say that genetic disorders are sometimes a punishment for being to ingrown.
But a minister in one such setting thought of it as a small price to pay for keeping the church separated from the world (and from other Anabaptist conferences/fellowships who might introduce new ideas or traditions.)
Do you think there are plain groups other than the old orders which have been similarly insular, but not as long, who will develop more of these sorts of genetic disorders in the coming years?
Are there any plain groups other than the Old Orders that don’t have significant feeder groups? Just anecdotally, it appears to me that most plain groups are constantly having members join from plainer churches. Basically what this thread is about.
Well, one that came to mind was Washington-Franklin. Do they have "feeder groups"?
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Neto

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Neto »

Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:06 pm
Neto wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 12:50 pmIn my heritage, the ministers saw this as an issue already in the mid 1800's, and "outlawed" cousin marriages. I do not recall now to what degree, but I think that it included 2nd cousins. (It is interesting that the Banawa somehow 'knew' that cross cousin marriage is much more safe than parallel cousin marriage. They consider parallel cousins to be siblings.)
Is this actually true? I could see as how it would be for sex-linked traits carried on the X or Y chromosome. But for any recessive disorders that occur on any of the other 22 chromosomes? I don’t see how that could be the case.

In any event, I think the real problem with cousin marriage is not if it just happens once within a population that has high genetic diversity, But rather, if it continues generation after generation within a population that has low genetic diversity. Then you can reach a state where 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th cousins might have as much genetic similarity with each other as 1st cousins would have in a more genetically diverse population.
I do not recall now where I first read this, but it's really quite logical.

But I'll just quote from one source that touches on this question:
In other words, Mendelian inheritance principles show that parallel first cousins are closer genetically than cross first cousins. A parallel cousin is one from a parent's same-sex sibling, while a cross cousin is from a parent's opposite-sex sibling. It is a fact that “higher than normal consanguinity which means an increased chance of sharing genes for recessive traits. With a high amount of shared DNA, one has a higher risk of birth defects in a baby,” [16]. These statements are made with regards to a person, Male 3A, who marries his first cousin on the father’s side, Female 3A, for instance. It is a perspective in the current work, that birth defects from consanguinity would be reduced if first cousin marriages shifted from Male 3A-Female 3A marriages, to Male 3A-Female 3A’ marriages. In other words, birth defects from consanguinity would be reduced if first cousin marriages took place between cross cousins rather than with parallel cousins. The genetic risks of recessive genes manifesting themselves in the babies are reduced, while wealth could still be preserved in the family.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... f/download
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Heirbyadoption

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Heirbyadoption »

mike wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:34 pm
Sliceitup wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:22 pm
mike wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 10:18 amDo you think there are plain groups other than the old orders which have been similarly insular, but not as long, who will develop more of these sorts of genetic disorders in the coming years?
Are there any plain groups other than the Old Orders that don’t have significant feeder groups? Just anecdotally, it appears to me that most plain groups are constantly having members join from plainer churches. Basically what this thread is about.
Well, one that came to mind was Washington-Franklin. Do they have "feeder groups"?
Mike, maybe Ernie can better speak to the contemporary state of this, but living over here in Franklin Co and interacting with a lot of them for the better part of a decade, the WashCo's seem to be a feeder group themself as much or more than receiving influx from others...
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Ken
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Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Ken »

Neto wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:45 pmI do not recall now where I first read this, but it's really quite logical.

But I'll just quote from one source that touches on this question:
In other words, Mendelian inheritance principles show that parallel first cousins are closer genetically than cross first cousins. A parallel cousin is one from a parent's same-sex sibling, while a cross cousin is from a parent's opposite-sex sibling. It is a fact that “higher than normal consanguinity which means an increased chance of sharing genes for recessive traits. With a high amount of shared DNA, one has a higher risk of birth defects in a baby,” [16]. These statements are made with regards to a person, Male 3A, who marries his first cousin on the father’s side, Female 3A, for instance. It is a perspective in the current work, that birth defects from consanguinity would be reduced if first cousin marriages shifted from Male 3A-Female 3A marriages, to Male 3A-Female 3A’ marriages. In other words, birth defects from consanguinity would be reduced if first cousin marriages took place between cross cousins rather than with parallel cousins. The genetic risks of recessive genes manifesting themselves in the babies are reduced, while wealth could still be preserved in the family.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... f/download
Your source says the same exact thing that I said. They are only talking about X-linked genes:
In the first cousin level, there is expected to be differences in the X-linked genes in the Male 3A and the Female 3A’. (At the second cousin level, the expected differences in the X-linked genes in the Male 4E and the Female 4D’are even greater than those of their respective parents, the Male 3A and the Female 3A’.) On the other hand, there is less differences in the X-linked genes in the Male 3A and the Female 3C because the X-linked genes of Female 3C are pretty close to those of Male 3A’s sister, Female 3A. The salient point is that the expected differences in the X-linked genes in Female 3A’ are greater than those of Female 3A. In other words, Mendelian inheritance principles show that parallel first cousins are closer genetically than cross first cousins. A parallel cousin is one from a parent's same-sex sibling, while a cross cousin is from a parent's opposite-sex sibling.
What they are saying is that there are a subset of genetic diseases or recessive traits that are carried on the X chromosome such that you only inherit them from your mother if you are a boy but can inherit them from either your mother or father if you are a girl. So yes, parallel cousins are going to be more likely to share those traits than cross cousins. But that is only going to be the case for genetic disorders carried on the X chromosome.

For genetic disorders carried on any of the other 22 chromosomes there is going to be no difference between parallel and cross cousins since there is equal chance that you will get the trait from either your mother or father. So if I'm doing the math right, and if genetic disorders are evenly distributed across all the chromosomes, then you would be 1/23 more genetically linked if you are parallel cousins rather than cross cousins. That means that parallel cousins are 4% more genetically linked than cross cousins and only for traits on the X chromosome. I think the math is more complex than that, but that is the gist. It is a measurable difference but not a huge one. And only relevant for disorders carried on the X chromosome.
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Neto

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Neto »

Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 3:58 pm
Neto wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:45 pmI do not recall now where I first read this, but it's really quite logical.

But I'll just quote from one source that touches on this question:
In other words, Mendelian inheritance principles show that parallel first cousins are closer genetically than cross first cousins. A parallel cousin is one from a parent's same-sex sibling, while a cross cousin is from a parent's opposite-sex sibling. It is a fact that “higher than normal consanguinity which means an increased chance of sharing genes for recessive traits. With a high amount of shared DNA, one has a higher risk of birth defects in a baby,” [16]. These statements are made with regards to a person, Male 3A, who marries his first cousin on the father’s side, Female 3A, for instance. It is a perspective in the current work, that birth defects from consanguinity would be reduced if first cousin marriages shifted from Male 3A-Female 3A marriages, to Male 3A-Female 3A’ marriages. In other words, birth defects from consanguinity would be reduced if first cousin marriages took place between cross cousins rather than with parallel cousins. The genetic risks of recessive genes manifesting themselves in the babies are reduced, while wealth could still be preserved in the family.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... f/download
Your source says the same exact thing that I said. They are only talking about X-linked genes:
In the first cousin level, there is expected to be differences in the X-linked genes in the Male 3A and the Female 3A’. (At the second cousin level, the expected differences in the X-linked genes in the Male 4E and the Female 4D’are even greater than those of their respective parents, the Male 3A and the Female 3A’.) On the other hand, there is less differences in the X-linked genes in the Male 3A and the Female 3C because the X-linked genes of Female 3C are pretty close to those of Male 3A’s sister, Female 3A. The salient point is that the expected differences in the X-linked genes in Female 3A’ are greater than those of Female 3A. In other words, Mendelian inheritance principles show that parallel first cousins are closer genetically than cross first cousins. A parallel cousin is one from a parent's same-sex sibling, while a cross cousin is from a parent's opposite-sex sibling.
What they are saying is that there are a subset of genetic diseases or recessive traits that are carried on the X chromosome such that you only inherit them from your mother if you are a boy but can inherit them from either your mother or father if you are a girl. So yes, parallel cousins are going to be more likely to share those traits than cross cousins. But that is only going to be the case for genetic disorders carried on the X chromosome.

For genetic disorders carried on any of the other 22 chromosomes there is going to be no difference between parallel and cross cousins since there is equal chance that you will get the trait from either your mother or father. So if I'm doing the math right, and if genetic disorders are evenly distributed across all the chromosomes, then you would be 1/23 more genetically linked if you are parallel cousins rather than cross cousins. That means that parallel cousins are 4% more genetically linked than cross cousins and only for traits on the X chromosome. I think the math is more complex than that, but that is the gist. It is a measurable difference but not a huge one. And only relevant for disorders carried on the X chromosome.
OK. I'm obviously not a geneticist. But the researchers who wrote that paper felt that it was/is important enough to suggest a far reaching cultural change, one that would bring about a severe cultural upheaval if the reverse track were pursued among the Banawa. Parallel-cousin marriages are not just discouraged, they are considered incestuous, the same as if an actual blood brother married his sister. It must have been enough of a difference that the Banawa somehow noticed the difference. (Of course no ethnographers were there observing the formation or development of the Banawa culture, and once formed it becomes extremely difficult to establish cause & effect.) So the current marriage pattern could be due to a higher prevalence of disorders linked to the X chromosome in their genetic background, OR it is also possible that it has nothing at all to do with genetics, but is a result of their emphasis on the brother-sister relationship. In this culture, a man never goes to visit his brother at his brother's home, nor does he ever share meat with his brother, because that would mean that he was providing food for his brother's wife, who was also culturally designated as a preferred potential spouse for himself. (In fact, the kinship term for a cross-cousin is 'other wife', or 'other husband'. And the kinship term for all of one's father's sisters is 'mother-in-law', and all of one's mother's brothers are called 'father-in-law'. It could of course be argued that the reverse is the case, that one's father's sister is called 'paternal aunt' or some such, and there are simply no distinctive terms that mean 'mother-in-law' and 'father-in-law'.)
But this is all a circular reasoning process, as either cultural rule could be a result of the other. That is, if the culture didn't favor cross-cousin marriage, but rather parallel-cousin marriage, then it would simply involve a different set of 'cousins' - in parenthesis because they do not recognize cross cousins as relatives at all; they are simply the preferred group from which to choose a mate, thus all referred to as 'wife' or 'husband'. However, the fact that there is no kinship term for one's same sex cross cousin suggests that the kinship classifications are not driving this distinction for a potential spouse. (I have always found kinship terminology of particular interest, so I explored this extensively, even though it was not at all necessary from the standpoint of Bible translation.) [One further comment, then I'll let it go: This distinction is not a matter of Patrilineality vs Matrilineality, because everyone has cross-cousins on both sides of their family - the men are not always choosing a wife from their father's family; they might just a likely chose a wife from their mother's family.]
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