How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

[Soloist]

It certainly wasn’t because they were looking to travel the broad way! The strait and narrow way is restrictive and there are more obstacles and turns. It was for a closer walk with Christ.

I don’t see how leaving an ultra setting to an intermediate relates anything to drawing closer to Christ. In fact it IS a broader way. Personal preference isn’t holier. The person could have stayed and drawn closer to Christ unless they needed to separate because of sin of the group - the Catholics were instituting lots of sin which was/is good reason to separate oneself.

I don’t see how more restrictions is closer to Christ either.
Leaving from intermediate to more conservative doesn’t necessarily mean closer to Jesus.

[Josh]

It certainly wasn’t because they were looking to travel the broad way! The strait and narrow way is restrictive and there are more obstacles and turns. It was for a closer walk with Christ.

I don’t see how leaving an ultra setting to an intermediate relates anything to drawing closer to Christ. In fact it IS a broader way. Personal preference isn’t holier. The person could have stayed and drawn closer to Christ unless they needed to separate because of sin of the group - the Catholics were instituting lots of sin which was/is good reason to separate oneself.

I don’t see how more restrictions is closer to Christ either.
Leaving from intermediate to more conservative doesn’t necessarily mean closer to Jesus.

It doesn’t necessarily mean that, but I didn’t see much point in sticking around a group where young people were drinking, watching pro sports, going to R rated movies… none of those things brought me closer to Christ and being in that social environment was unhealthy for me.

[Soloist]

It doesn’t necessarily mean that, but I didn’t see much point in sticking around a group where young people were drinking, watching pro sports, going to R rated movies… none of those things brought me closer to Christ and being in that social environment was unhealthy for me.

That of course circles back churches actually disciplining their members.

[mike]

I don't have a problem with churches changing. In fact I am fairly strongly opposed to having a goal of never changing. My issue is more with why and how, and also what.

Ernie’s term of “transitional church” isn’t about a specific church changing, though.

In any church, there should be things that are non-negotiable, and other things that are subject to change.

This is about something entirely different, which is specifically a church which functions by moving members in from a more conservative church and then moving them out to a less conservative church. One “feature” is that none of the churches involved have to ever change anything. Instead, the people themselves keep changing their church membership, which is not something I see advocated for in the New Testament at all.

Yes, I guess this is different topic from the thread topic.

[NedFlanders]

It certainly wasn’t because they were looking to travel the broad way! The strait and narrow way is restrictive and there are more obstacles and turns. It was for a closer walk with Christ.

I don’t see how leaving an ultra setting to an intermediate relates anything to drawing closer to Christ. In fact it IS a broader way. Personal preference isn’t holier. The person could have stayed and drawn closer to Christ unless they needed to separate because of sin of the group - the Catholics were instituting lots of sin which was/is good reason to separate oneself.

I don’t see how more restrictions is closer to Christ either.
Leaving from intermediate to more conservative doesn’t necessarily mean closer to Jesus.

A person can exist in ANY church and move closer to Christ at least for a period of time until moving might be necessary. I don’t necessarily believe a person has to leave an intermediate setting ever but as a whole I do view them as transitional- which doesn’t mean you have to transition to more liberal with them but it does mean this will effect a person’s children.
I’m not trying to get people to jump churches - I am in fact saying for people to do that much much less. Some situations especially don’t warrant moving anyway and you may be an influence that stops the transitional trend.

[Josh]

It doesn’t necessarily mean that, but I didn’t see much point in sticking around a group where young people were drinking, watching pro sports, going to R rated movies… none of those things brought me closer to Christ and being in that social environment was unhealthy for me.

That of course circles back churches actually disciplining their members.

Those things are entirely acceptable now in some Anabaptist circles. Of course, it started with saying “Well the Bible never says alcohol is a sin - just getting drunk”, and then saying the Bible doesn’t say you can’t follow pro sports or watch movies.

The point is, I didn’t want to continue to conform my life to the standard expected in some wings of BMA / RNoC.

[Soloist]

It doesn’t necessarily mean that, but I didn’t see much point in sticking around a group where young people were drinking, watching pro sports, going to R rated movies… none of those things brought me closer to Christ and being in that social environment was unhealthy for me.

That of course circles back churches actually disciplining their members.

Those things are entirely acceptable now in some Anabaptist circles. Of course, it started with saying “Well the Bible never says alcohol is a sin - just getting drunk”, and then saying the Bible doesn’t say you can’t follow pro sports or watch movies.

The point is, I didn’t want to continue to conform my life to the standard expected in some wings of BMA / RNoC.

I personally have never heard of anyone in our Pilgrim church or in the other church we attended that did any of these things. The first Anabaptist church did have that and we left.

[joshuabgood]

What I see is a gradual transition to Protestantism by Anabaptists. It begins by embracing "born again" Christianity and "Faith alone" and then naturally flows to de-emphasizing works and orthopraxis, deemphasizing community discernment in practical applications and embracing individual grace, fed by "PSA alone" which inexorably leads to OSAS and a gospel that is essentially eschatological, fed by conservative political preachers and protestant radio hosts, which leads to thinking the 2nd amendment is important, and self defense leads to embracing violence in government institutions (military/police), which leads to oaths etc etc. In the end, transitioning folks almost always end up Protestant of some sort (with a very few going Catholic or EO or Anglican)

How do we stop it?

Articulate a clear and compelling Anabaptist vision, that isn't afraid of modernity and education, that exalts Jesus as Lord, isn't judgmental, and that doesn't lose track of its own story.

[Josh]

That of course circles back churches actually disciplining their members.

Those things are entirely acceptable now in some Anabaptist circles. Of course, it started with saying “Well the Bible never says alcohol is a sin - just getting drunk”, and then saying the Bible doesn’t say you can’t follow pro sports or watch movies.

The point is, I didn’t want to continue to conform my life to the standard expected in some wings of BMA / RNoC.

I personally have never heard of anyone in our Pilgrim church or in the other church we attended that did any of these things. The first Anabaptist church did have that and we left.

Yes, that would never happen in intermediate circles.

Unfortunately for me, I came to Anabaptism in a moderate-conservative church that is halfway to becoming fundamental-conservative and the membership there keeps leaving for RNoC or (ex-)BMA in droves, so I never got to experience the spiritual stability and discipleship that comes with a more orderly church like yours.

This thread is intended as a criticism of transitional churches not intermediate churches. Some of the worst transitional churches in my mind are the ones on the fringes of RNoC, BMA, and Charity.

[Neto]

#4. Encourage people who want to join to instead stay in their fellowships and grow spiritually there.

This one especially resonates with me. I used to think that when an Old Order Amish district is identified as having little spiritual emphasis, that someone should start a new congregation in their area. Now I pray for them, and encourage Amish from other districts to seek ways in which they might gain a hearing there. (My personal habit is to just seek to fellowship with members from that district, on a strictly personal level. My experience has been that an individual will enter into fellowship "in private" who would not support my acceptance in their own meetings. (My perception is along these lines, at any rate.) This has been most noticeable for me in dealings with the very conservative Beachy folks, more than with OO Amish.)

EDIT: But to the main question, I think that helping people come to personal conviction is the only thing that will help a congregation or group hold to their Biblical positions.