Does the "Charity Church" really exist anymore?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Josh

Re: Does the "Charity Church" really exist anymore?

Post by Josh »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 8:46 am
Josh wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 8:36 am Unfortunately, at this point I can judge the Charity groups around me based on appearance. (For reference, they all dress more worldly than Holdemans do now.)
I'm speaking about your opinion of these groups that are not identifying as Charity.
Well, these groups refuse to identify as anything, so we have to call them something. The usual term is "Charity-type church". I'm not sure what else to call them. I suppose we could call them "claims-not-to-be-typical-Charity churches".
Of course its not reasonable to have rigid applications but you know that isn't what I'm speaking of in church settings. Drift doesn't stay at just a few miles over and you know this. Loyalty to your group isn't wrong, but claiming in 20 years these other groups such as Agape group or the Caneyville group will basically be clones while claiming the same issues in your own group won't change...

You are a very black and white person when it suits you and you know some of these rules are a do or do not. Recording the church sermons isn't allowed yet many of the younger generation do it regularly. That standard will change in 20 years unless it is addressed and I don't see it happening.
I am not actually a very black and white person but I have found that interpreting the entire world through "nuances" is not always helpful (particularly here on MennoNet). There are plenty of other people who want to bring a "nuanced" view of things (when it suits them).

I agree that my church's courage when it comes to recordings is not particularly strong right now; however, the actual stance on recorded music and listening to sermons repeatedly has not changed, and most people I am around in my own congregation don't do these things. A handful do and think it's fine.

The changes in these other groups happen far, far more rapidly and cut to the core of very fundamental things. For example, when it comes to clothes and coverings, Holdemans see barely any drift at all. The same goes for things like firearms - in fact, the standard that is expected has become stronger compared to 10 years ago. The same would go for maintaining a status as conscientious objectors including complying with what the government expects of us there.

I used to be in a different type of church and frankly the focus on clothes seemed to be excessive. The main expectation on a new member was what style of kapp his wife would wear for a year before they would be accepted as members. I think that's the wrong focus. I never even heard anything about Selective Service or maintaining volunteer public service units when I was in the Beachy and Beachy-esque circles. Same goes for Charity. The latter functioned extremely independently and wasn't even able to maintain things like functional church schools, alternative service units for time of war, and mission units functioned effectively independently.

The reality is that the main purpose of a Charity church is to induct Amish people. I don't think a church whose entire envagelisation strategy is "converting" Amish is really fulfilling the great commission or helping to spread the gospel, since the Amish are already Christians and believers. Particularly when I look at how things have turned out and see that the vast majority of people ended up losing out. Christian faith has to be about more than just clothes.

Overall, there are many, many other plain groups that are not transitional - in fact the majority of them. The transitional groups (like the Charity type of churches) are the odd men out. The simple fact is they have nothing at all of value, spiritually speaking, to offer a seeker and particularly a seeker's family and there needs to be honest, realistic acknowledgment of this fact.
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Soloist

Re: Does the "Charity Church" really exist anymore?

Post by Soloist »

I think Josh that this is one of the differences between PA churches and west coast churches. Even southern churches for that matter.
If someone plants a church in Utah, chances are more converts are ex-Mormon.

Both of the two churches we basically attended in Oregon were active in either cam work or involved in some alternative service work.

As for weapons, I would see more attention being given to this given political winds. Not that I see forbidding ak style guns to be a bad thing at all.
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Josh

Re: Does the "Charity Church" really exist anymore?

Post by Josh »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 10:32 am I think Josh that this is one of the differences between PA churches and west coast churches. Even southern churches for that matter.
If someone plants a church in Utah, chances are more converts are ex-Mormon.

Both of the two churches we basically attended in Oregon were active in either cam work or involved in some alternative service work.
Yes, that would be one of the more beneficial things about plain churches that are not smack in the middle of a plain settlement and basically composed of 100% ex-Amish. However, even in a place like Oregon, my experience around Charity-type churches is they seem to recruit almost exclusively from more conservative Anabaptist churches. This doesn't seem like mission work, evangelism, or witnessing to the world, to me.
As for weapons, I would see more attention being given to this given political winds. Not that I see forbidding ak style guns to be a bad thing at all.
What attention would you want given to weapons? At this point Holdemans aren't supposed to have any firearms other than hunting type rifles or something that has a non-military styled appearance is not easily concealable.

Things like staying up to date on the news / scrolling Fox News are regularly preached against from the pulpit. (Thankfully for me, I have MennoNet to keep me up to date on the news.)
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Ernie

Re: Does the "Charity Church" really exist anymore?

Post by Ernie »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 9:31 pmYet Denny Kenaston influenced virtually zero Baptists to move towards a more Christian and biblical lifestyle and Christian life, yet he influenced hordes of Amish and other plain people in to becoming more like Baptists.
Interesting and sad how that works...
Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jul 08, 2023 9:31 pm I have been around the Charity movement for about 8 years. One of the "problems" I have that is every single person my age or younger in that movement I've gotten to know and been around[*] is no longer what I would categorise as plain (headship veiling, modest dress, nonresistance, and so forth). Needless to say, it's not something I really want to be around nor find much hope or a future in.
There are many people at Charity Leola and their affiliates who still are plain. But if your theology is similar to Evangelical theology, it is no surprise if a sizeable percentage wonder why they shouldn't just join the Evangelicals. (or skip religion altogether)
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Ernie

Re: Does the "Charity Church" really exist anymore?

Post by Ernie »

Josh wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 12:34 pm(Thankfully for me, I have MennoNet to keep me up to date on the news.)
And your church is fine with this?
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Josh

Re: Does the "Charity Church" really exist anymore?

Post by Josh »

Ernie wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 12:42 pm There are many people at Charity Leola and their affiliates who still are plain. But if your theology is similar to Evangelical theology, it is no surprise if a sizeable percentage wonder why they shouldn't just join the Evangelicals. (or skip religion altogether)
I mostly knew younger people who seem to have all left the plain lifestyle (specifically at Berea and Grace C.F, here in Ohio, River of Life, Muddy Pond, and whatever the church was in Lewiston Pa.)

Unfortunately it is basically a complete waste of my time to even try to build relationships with such people. I would be better off befriending people who are already in a typical evangelical church - or focus on perhaps worldly people who aren’t converted.
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Soloist

Re: Does the "Charity Church" really exist anymore?

Post by Soloist »

Josh wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 12:34 pm
Yes, that would be one of the more beneficial things about plain churches that are not smack in the middle of a plain settlement and basically composed of 100% ex-Amish. However, even in a place like Oregon, my experience around Charity-type churches is they seem to recruit almost exclusively from more conservative Anabaptist churches. This doesn't seem like mission work, evangelism, or witnessing to the world, to me.
Given that there is 1 charity like church in Oregon and I know everyone there… I would say you are wrong.
They also respect Mennonite church discipline and are unwilling to accept someone as a member if they have problems elsewhere. They get along and work together with the local Mennonite churches and have a variety of backgrounds.
What attention would you want given to weapons? At this point Holdemans aren't supposed to have any firearms other than hunting type rifles or something that has a non-military styled appearance is not easily concealable.
I see this as a good thing. Running into conservative Mennonites who think there is nothing wrong with owning and giving their children AR styled weapons is foolishness.
Things like staying up to date on the news / scrolling Fox News are regularly preached against from the pulpit. (Thankfully for me, I have MennoNet to keep me up to date on the news.)
From what I see, you remain very up to date regardless of Mennonet as you seem very well informed on happenings or angles not mentioned on Mennonet.
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Josh

Re: Does the "Charity Church" really exist anymore?

Post by Josh »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 1:13 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 12:34 pm
Yes, that would be one of the more beneficial things about plain churches that are not smack in the middle of a plain settlement and basically composed of 100% ex-Amish. However, even in a place like Oregon, my experience around Charity-type churches is they seem to recruit almost exclusively from more conservative Anabaptist churches. This doesn't seem like mission work, evangelism, or witnessing to the world, to me.
Given that there is 1 charity like church in Oregon and I know everyone there… I would say you are wrong.
They also respect Mennonite church discipline and are unwilling to accept someone as a member if they have problems elsewhere. They get along and work together with the local Mennonite churches and have a variety of backgrounds.
In that case they are very much not the norm.

What is the background of their members?
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Soloist

Re: Does the "Charity Church" really exist anymore?

Post by Soloist »

A variety. Two of them were Mennonite born, the rest from a variety of places. The majority had no connection to Anabaptists by blood.
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Valerie

Re: Does the "Charity Church" really exist anymore?

Post by Valerie »

This is reminding me of a message from Charity in 2008 i think it was- may sound familiar:

"Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisees stood and prayed this with himself, 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men - extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week I give tithes of all that I possess. And the tax collector standing a far off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying "God, be merciful to me a sinner!" I tell you this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted".Luke 18:9-14.

The message was given from a visiting padtor from South America noticing how Lancaster PA Christians were comparing themselves in such a way as the Pharisee- it was an admonishment & warning.

He repeated 3x: "be careful of spiritual pride, it is an infection"

It does creep up on us doesn't it?

It seemed shortly after this admonishment is when Charity began some changes
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