Does the "Charity Church" really exist anymore?

[Valerie]

Wife: As a lady, I know several people from a couple of the agape fellowship churches, which originally came from charity, that wore head coverings (had to be black or white hanging veil) at least as big as caps or Holdeman coverings. Some of them covered even more than that, and they don’t change apparel during the week, and in fact, some of them even sleep in their coverings.
The men wear button up shirts, either short sleeve or long sleeve, no shorts outside of presumably swimming, which was segregated at least at the one church, and I have no idea about the other one, and the women mostly wear cape dresses or vest dresses, and a couple wear jumpers. Skirts are not allowed in that group, and although I don’t think this is a church standard, most of the people I know would be anti red dresses.
No instruments during church service, and usually the songs came out of the Purple Martin or the Christian Hymnary, or rarely from a patched together printed hymnal with some Gospel style songs. Also, I think the recent change when they became a fellowship was that youth needed phones completely locked down to the point where they couldn’t even have Whatsapp until they were either 18 or 21, and I know that they also wanted Internet accountability filters for everyone, although I don’t know what all was required or not because we weren’t members at the time. A lot of them did not come from Anabaptist groups, at least in the churches that I went to, although some did. Anyone currently in that fellowship can feel free to correct this.

The one thing I appreciated about the church that we went to, which I don’t know if it will continue to future generations or not, was that even though they had less standards than the conservative Mennonite churches, they didn’t try to wiggle out of them or disobey under the table. Every church has upsides and downsides, but that was my experience with Agape.

So this sounds just like charity Christian fellowship and Ephrata Christian fellowship in Leola at least when we were seekers to Anabaptism. The people we met and then visiting an Ohio affiliation sounds just like what you describe here.

The Heartbeat of the Remnant publication was one that I received every other month and it was extremely strict about conveying these matters. Mem wouldn't have joined a charity church with the idea that you could wear t-shirts because I remember reading how they looked at those as "underwear" . They had very often articles warning of drifting, very strict about the kind of music to listen to. I remember being so influenced by a lot of their teachings that way. Also in the Heartbeat of the Remnant publication they were often criticizing Evangelicals. My Christian friends were very concerned about us joining charity as they saw them as too legalistic.

In pur area we do jave A.ish that the women's hair does not show at all there coverings completely cover their head, they would be the Swartz and troopers. There are a lot of Old Order where you can see just a little bit of the hair above the forehead, the rest is completely covered

[Soloist]

So this sounds just like charity Christian fellowship and Ephrata Christian fellowship in Leola at least when we were seekers to Anabaptism. The people we met and then visiting an Ohio affiliation sounds just like what you describe here.

The Heartbeat of the Remnant publication was one that I received every other month and it was extremely strict about conveying these matters. Mem wouldn't have joined a charity church with the idea that you could wear t-shirts because I remember reading how they looked at those as "underwear" . They had very often articles warning of drifting, very strict about the kind of music to listen to. I remember being so influenced by a lot of their teachings that way. Also in the Heartbeat of the Remnant publication they were often criticizing Evangelicals. My Christian friends were very concerned about us joining charity as they saw them as too legalistic.

In pur area we do jave A.ish that the women's hair does not show at all there coverings completely cover their head, they would be the Swartz and troopers. There are a lot of Old Order where you can see just a little bit of the hair above the forehead, the rest is completely covered

Wife: Yeah, I think that heartbeat of the remnant would now probably be more affiliated with Agape. I know that Mark Brubaker (living Hope Christian fellowship) has written in it, and he’s one of the main people who spearheaded Agape fellowship. He used to run around with Denny and Mose back in the day, and I forget the name of the two Bible schools their churches do. Maybe Ephrata and one other. Not sure if Brubaker’s still are in charge of the Bible schools because his wife has health issues, but one is in November, and the other one is maybe February or March. Ironically, one of the ladies at the church we used to go to recommended against the charity churches in our area.

Also, I have no idea if Mark’s church does segregated seating for the entire congregation or not, but the other churches at least did it with the youth in the front rows. They also had basically everybody show up at Wednesday night prayer service, and there was a fellowship meal every other week.

CCM was discouraged and preached against, but I don’t think radio was actually forbidden unless that was something that changed with the fellowship.

[Josh]

So this sounds just like charity Christian fellowship and Ephrata Christian fellowship in Leola at least when we were seekers to Anabaptism. The people we met and then visiting an Ohio affiliation sounds just like what you describe here.

The Heartbeat of the Remnant publication was one that I received every other month and it was extremely strict about conveying these matters. Mem wouldn't have joined a charity church with the idea that you could wear t-shirts because I remember reading how they looked at those as "underwear" . They had very often articles warning of drifting, very strict about the kind of music to listen to. I remember being so influenced by a lot of their teachings that way. Also in the Heartbeat of the Remnant publication they were often criticizing Evangelicals. My Christian friends were very concerned about us joining charity as they saw them as too legalistic.

Yet in the present era, people on their churches listen to lots of CCM, men wear tshirts, and so on. Perhaps they should have read their own publications?

My main concern with a body of believers it not where they are today but where they are going.

[mike]

And so, why don't these kinds of groups address change in a more straightforward way by acknowledging it not only happens but sometimes needs to happen, that it can be a good thing, and can be done without going down the slippery slope into worldliness. If token adherence to rigid written standards that they don't even believe in themselves is the only thing keeping them from becoming godless worldlings, do they really possess genuine faith in Jesus?

Well, that was the exact message that a lot of liberalising forces (including Charity, in particular), had: that the answer was to abandon traditions and instead embrace some kind of personal, evangelical-style "relationship with Jesus".

However, we can judge the end fruit of that movement: it resulted in a lot of people who eventually ended up with a "relationship with Jesus" that also meant not obeying him or really following him in the ways he taught us to in the New Testament. And thus, my confidence in the whole evangelical "relationship with Jesus" approach has been lost.

I am not saying to be a die-hard traditionalist, but the answers that the Charity movement and other evangelical-liberalising movements offered was not an answer that moved a body of believers closer to being more Christlike.

I can't entirely disagree with you, although I would argue that the Charity movement had some good effects on other plain Anabaptist groups that will stick around long after the movement is off the scene. And there are many individuals and plenty of churches that came out of or were impacted by the movement that are doing well and appear to have solid footing into the next generation. I would put Harmony Christian Fellowship in that category, and numbers of others.

[Soloist]

Yet in the present era, people on their churches listen to lots of CCM, men wear tshirts, and so on. Perhaps they should have read their own publications?

My main concern with a body of believers it not where they are today but where they are going.

You are one to speak… tshirts indeed.

[mike]

Some feel that making "avoiding drift" a primary goal is a well intentioned mistake that leads to a dying church. Life and contexts and society change. Therefore our primary goal perhaps should remain the true North, being like Christ and discipleship, knowing that we will in an ongoing way make strategic adjustments. That is, to have a vibrant and living faith.

Sounds good to me, although the fruit of one's life reveals a lot about what one's primary goal is, and that doesn't always line up with the stated goal. But I agree with the principle of this.

[mike]

Yet in the present era, people on their churches listen to lots of CCM, men wear tshirts, and so on. Perhaps they should have read their own publications?

My main concern with a body of believers it not where they are today but where they are going.

You are one to speak… tshirts indeed.

The Holdemans I observe wear t-shirts (I call them undershirts) in public. And dress relatively immodestly if you consider things like tight dresses to be immodest.

[Soloist]

Yet in the present era, people on their churches listen to lots of CCM, men wear tshirts, and so on. Perhaps they should have read their own publications?

My main concern with a body of believers it not where they are today but where they are going.

You are one to speak… tshirts indeed.

The Holdemans I observe wear t-shirts (I call them undershirts) in public. And dress relatively immodestly if you consider things like tight dresses to be immodest.

There are several practices of theirs I would disagree with and I think there is considerable drift in their ranks. This is a fault of a OTC group. No one is willing to discipline except for serious offenses which has the same impact as any other church with the exception that leaving the church would get discipline.

[Valerie]

And so, why don't these kinds of groups address change in a more straightforward way by acknowledging it not only happens but sometimes needs to happen, that it can be a good thing, and can be done without going down the slippery slope into worldliness. If token adherence to rigid written standards that they don't even believe in themselves is the only thing keeping them from becoming godless worldlings, do they really possess genuine faith in Jesus?

Well, that was the exact message that a lot of liberalising forces (including Charity, in particular), had: that the answer was to abandon traditions and instead embrace some kind of personal, evangelical-style "relationship with Jesus".

However, we can judge the end fruit of that movement: it resulted in a lot of people who eventually ended up with a "relationship with Jesus" that also meant not obeying him or really following him in the ways he taught us to in the New Testament. And thus, my confidence in the whole evangelical "relationship with Jesus" approach has been lost.

I am not saying to be a die-hard traditionalist, but the answers that the Charity movement and other evangelical-liberalising movements offered was not an answer that moved a body of believers closer to being more Christlike.

I can't entirely disagree with you, although I would argue that the Charity movement had some good effects on other plain Anabaptist groups that will stick around long after the movement is off the scene. And there are many individuals and plenty of churches that came out of or were impacted by the movement that are doing well and appear to have solid footing into the next generation. I would put Harmony Christian Fellowship in that category, and numbers of others.

Agreed.
It was an Amish man that pointed & introduced me to Charity.
Denny, former atheist, then Baptist, was highly affected by the plane and a Baptist people when he was introduced to them in Tennessee. Mose background probably had more to do with trying to reach Amish to encourage them to, as Denny put it, be known for more than their "pies". His own family was so ain dressed appearing almost Amish he said tour buses would sliw down so people could take pictures of him and his family walking down the road.

I truly see the value in their teachings, not sure any affected me as much- they certainly were not sdvocates of mediocre Christianity but in a real & vibrant walk with Christ to the uttermost. We still get their missionary publication- Denny's oldest son's family has been in Africa a LONG time-

[Ernie]

An interesting thing about the Agape movement...

It started with a few conservative elders wanting to have more discipline in church life.

The two main drivers behind forming the Agape Fellowship never joined.
One wanted to be like Charity was in the beginning days.
The other said, "If we are like Charity was in the beginning days, we can expect to be where Charity is 25 years later." Neither church (along with their elders) ended up being part of Agape, although I think some from both churches attend Agape related meetings.