Another business flees

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
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Ken
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Re: Another business flees

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Josh wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 8:13 am
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:35 pm The wealthy elites in San Francisco have deliberately and systematically made it impossible to build low income housing in San Francisco. Or practically any housing for that matter. Social programs are pointless if there is no place for people to live.
Ken,
That’s simply not correct. SF has a “housing first” model with housing actually available for anyone homeless. The 4,000 who choose to remain outside do so because they don’t want to deal with the very minimal requirements to get off the streets.
"Housing First" doesn't mean what you think it means.

A Housing First model means it is your policy to place people into housing BEFORE you address the underlying pathologies that made them homeless in the first place such as addiction, mental illness, or complete lack of employable skills. It has been a disaster in most places where it has been tried because you end up putting dysfunctional predators into ordinary housing where poor families and poor elderly live with predictable consequences.

San Francisco might have a Housing First policy on paper, but that doesn't mean they are actually building any low income housing in the city or allowing the private sector to do the same. They are NOT. And a Housing First Model doesn't mean one single new home ever gets built. The wait list for section 8 housing in San Francisco is something like 18 YEARS. And anyone in the private sector who wants to build housing faces similar obstacles. San Francisco has maybe 1/4 the population density of smaller European cities like Barcelona. Here is an article on how San Francisco makes it insanely difficult to build housing: https://sfstandard.com/housing-developm ... d-housing/

The legal problem facing San Francisco and other cities is that the Federal Courts have said that you cannot make public camping on the streets and public parks illegal unless you provide alternative places for them to sleep. And because most cities do not actually have adequate shelter or camping space they are stuck having to tolerate public camping.

But the solution isn't to build brand new housing for vagrants that meets every single esthetic, design, construction, parking, accessibility, and energy efficiency code we have in place for new construction because in big cities that ends up costing half a million dollars per unit. Nor is the solution to ding around with one-off hand-built "tiny home" communities of the sort they are now building in Portland and Seattle. We can look overseas to actually get better ideas.

Let's look at Turkey which has absorbed nearly 4 MILLION refugees from Syria over the decade. Compared to that, San Francisco's 8,000 homeless isn't even rounding error. How does Turkey do it? Not with tents and blue tarps on the streets and in the parks. And not by slowly building more section 8 housing. No, they put up temporary refugee housing on an industrial scale. With walls and lots of police security as well as schools, social service agencies, and so forth:

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There is no reason other than political will and bureaucracy for why US cities cannot do the same exact thing. It is mostly a lack of imagination and the political will to go against a myriad of vested interests. Put in industrial scale temporary shelters of this sort, surround them by social service agencies in FEMA type trailers, let churches and other social service organizations come in and put in food trucks for meals if they want to feed the homeless, put in tight security including surveillance cameras to keep out drug dealing and other crime, and so forth. You could get this sort of thing put up in weeks.

Even refugees in places like Somalia and Sudan often have better shelter than homeless on the streets of the richest nation that has ever existed. IKEA makes flat-pack refugee housing that costs about $1250 per unit and can be assembled with minimal tools in 4 hours. Put in a few thousand of these in remote industrial areas of cities like Portland and San Francisco and you have basically solved the problem of "where can the homeless go" which then enables you to sweep the streets and parks daily and nightly of tents and garbage and all the rest.

And for those criminals who refuse to follow the rules, you put in some designated camping areas in parking lots on the edge of town where they can camp and put some squad cars there to keep an eye on things. Then you can legally toss them out of every other part of the city where you don't want them to camp.

These are the $1250 flat-pack easy to assemble IKEA refugee shelters. They are designed for electricity and security (locking doors). 8,000 of these would cost San Francisco $10 million which is a drop in the bucket compared to what they are wasting now on the problem. And would be a VAST improvement in every way over nylon camping tents on the sidewalks and in the parks.

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RZehr

Re: Another business flees

Post by RZehr »

We built some of the shelters in this video:
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Ken
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Re: Another business flees

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RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 2:24 pm We built some of the shelters in this video:
Yeah, that's stupid on a whole lot of levels because:

1. They put them in residential neighborhoods not say out in the vast empty paved industrial areas by the expo center or Delta Park
2. Oregon's spending on addiction treatment is vastly inadequate so there is basically no help for people who actually want to get off drugs
3. Oregon's spending on mental health treatment is the same so people suffering from mental illness can't get help
4. Enforcement against drug dealing is inadequate to say the least.
5. This is an example of the "Housing First" policy that I discussed above with respect to San Francisco. It simply doesn't work.

A better solution would be to build new detention centers that are combination drug rehab and prison, and combination mental health treatment and prison. Which would cost hundreds of millions of dollars. But Oregon can afford that. The projected "kicker" tax rebate in 2023 is projected to be in the neighborhood of $4 billion.

Then you have say a MANDATORY 6 month combined rehab/prison sentence for any drug-related offenses. Steal a bike to fund your drug habit? Bam...6 months MANDATORY rehab. Steal a catalytic converter to fund your drug habit? Bam, 6 months MANDATORY rehab. Assault someone on the street while on drugs? BAM 6 months MANDATORY rehab. Etc. etc. You can't force people involuntarily into rehab. But you can incarcerate them for crimes. So combine the two.

Same thing with mental health. It is exceedingly difficult to institutionalize someone against their will for mental health treatment. But we can most certainly lock them up for crimes. So create actual involuntary mental health facilities and send people there who commit crimes due to mental illness. You commit a crime and you are not mentally ill, you go to regular prison. You commit a crime and you have a mental illness? You serve your sentence in a facility designed to give you help.

And also of course, build more drug rehab and mental health facilities to serve those who suffer from addiction and mental illness but are not actually committing any crimes.

Do all of that and be serious about it and the percentage of people who still fall through the cracks will be a tiny fraction of what we are dealing with today.
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Josh

Re: Another business flees

Post by Josh »

The reason 4,000 people sleep on the street is because they want to. If they want to, and you don’t stop them, it’s going to happen.

The street crime and robberies are not homeless people, generally speaking - they are being conducted by organised crime.
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Ken
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Re: Another business flees

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Josh wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 6:42 pm The reason 4,000 people sleep on the street is because they want to. If they want to, and you don’t stop them, it’s going to happen.

The street crime and robberies are not homeless people, generally speaking - they are being conducted by organised crime.
The point I made upstream is that because of the court case Martin v. Boise": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_v._Boise it is illegal for cities to roust homeless from public places UNLESS the city has adequate shelter beds or alternatives available for their homeless population. Read the case. Bottom line, unless a city has enough shelter available for its homeless population they cannot make it illegal to camp in public. Left unsaid in the ruling is the extent to which cities can put time and place restrictions on homeless camping while still avoiding an outright ban. Portland, for example, just passed a law outlaying daytime camping in public spaces and it is likely to be challenged in court.

What that means is that if San Francisco or any other city wants to make homeless camping on public property illegal, they have to FIRST make sure they have enough shelter space of some sort to accommodate their entire homeless population. San Francisco is nowhere near that threshold, and neither are most other cities. And few cities are actually making meaningful progress towards that end. Which is why I suggested upstream to drop the pretense of endless public housing delays and tiny houses and so forth. And just build industrial scale temporary shelter space in places where they will have the least impact. And then you can legally roust people out of all the public spaces where you don't want them to be.
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Robert
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Re: Another business flees

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I had not heard of that case. Thanks for the information.

It seems that it only affects certain states.
In 2019, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal of the case, leaving the precedent intact in the nine Western states under the jurisdiction of the Ninth Circuit (Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington).[3][4]
A city could restrict camping in certain areas, just not outright in the entire city.
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Ken
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Re: Another business flees

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Robert wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 7:37 pm I had not heard of that case. Thanks for the information.

It seems that it only affects certain states.
In 2019, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal of the case, leaving the precedent intact in the nine Western states under the jurisdiction of the Ninth Circuit (Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington).[3][4]
A city could restrict camping in certain areas, just not outright in the entire city.
It went all the way up to the Supreme Court but the Supreme Court let the 9th Circuit ruling case stand and so there really isn't any national precedent. But in theory, anyone in any other part of the country could sue based on the 9th Circuit ruling and then the Supreme Court would have to intervene if there were conflicting ruling in different regions.

But yes, the limits to city authority under Martin v. Boise are not really very well defined. How far can a city go in regulating the time and place of camping before they run afoul of the ruling? No one really knows.

I actually tend to agree with the principle behind the ruling on both Christian and humanitarian grounds. It shouldn't be illegal to simply be homeless. And I think cities, especially in the west where housing is expensive, have done a terrible job of dealing with this problem in any humane way. And by humane I don't mean letting people freely lie about in public feeding their addictions and mental illnesses. But rather, doing the hard work to get them the help that they need and weeding out the predators from the victims rather than letting them all swim together in the same sea unmolested.
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Josh

Re: Another business flees

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 8:07 pm I actually tend to agree with the principle behind the ruling on both Christian and humanitarian grounds. It shouldn't be illegal to simply be homeless. And I think cities, especially in the west where housing is expensive, have done a terrible job of dealing with this problem in any humane way. And by humane I don't mean letting people freely lie about in public feeding their addictions and mental illnesses. But rather, doing the hard work to get them the help that they need and weeding out the predators from the victims rather than letting them all swim together in the same sea unmolested.
Yet it doesn't make sense for people to choose to be homeless in the city with the greatest housing costs in the country when there are myraids of other places to go live that are more affordable.
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Ken
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Re: Another business flees

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 8:15 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 8:07 pm I actually tend to agree with the principle behind the ruling on both Christian and humanitarian grounds. It shouldn't be illegal to simply be homeless. And I think cities, especially in the west where housing is expensive, have done a terrible job of dealing with this problem in any humane way. And by humane I don't mean letting people freely lie about in public feeding their addictions and mental illnesses. But rather, doing the hard work to get them the help that they need and weeding out the predators from the victims rather than letting them all swim together in the same sea unmolested.
Yet it doesn't make sense for people to choose to be homeless in the city with the greatest housing costs in the country when there are myraids of other places to go live that are more affordable.
For the most part, they go there because that is where the drugs are. If you are homeless in a wheatfield in rural Kansas it is going to be a lot harder to get your fentanyl fix. Not impossible perhaps, as drugs are everywhere. But more difficult.

Cities are also easier to be homeless because things are more walkable. You can walk to a liquor store to get booze, or convenience store to get a sandwich or drink, or a shelter to get a shower. Can't do that if you are 10 miles outside of town in some rural patch of land.
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Josh

Re: Another business flees

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 8:42 pm For the most part, they go there because that is where the drugs are. If you are homeless in a wheatfield in rural Kansas it is going to be a lot harder to get your fentanyl fix. Not impossible perhaps, as drugs are everywhere. But more difficult.

Cities are also easier to be homeless because things are more walkable. You can walk to a liquor store to get booze, or convenience store to get a sandwich or drink, or a shelter to get a shower. Can't do that if you are 10 miles outside of town in some rural patch of land.
Yet it seems to me that society does not have an obligation to provide housing in one of the most expensive cities in America to people who choose not to follow society's rules. (As I said earlier, 4,000 of the 8,000 homeless in SF do have a place to stay overnight. The remaining 4,000 simply choose not to avail themselves of options of places to stay overnight besides on the street.)
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