Global Warning/Climate Change

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Ken
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Ken »

Sudsy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:13 amClimate change is one of many fears we don't need to live with as believers. Nor the expansion of sin. Nor politics, etc, etc. and that, to me, is how we are able to experience that peace of heart that goes beyond understanding. And as free will beings we can chose to obey and trust what God says to live in a peaceful state or not. Why would any believer chose to not live in a peaceful state of mind ? Isn't this due to worldly influences that we should be anxious about things or other Christian influences that seem to believe we can't be anxious free ?
You may believe that climate change is a fear that you don't need to live with. That is a question of theology and faith.

However the actions you take here on earth have an individual and collective effect on both the environment and society in which you live. We are not alone on this world. We share it with others. But I guess what responsibility you choose to take your own actions is for you to decide.
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Sudsy

Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 1:04 pm
Sudsy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:13 am
Valerie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 15, 2023 6:59 pm

Well i do see a difference in God being sovereign over our weather, and him giving free will to every human being.
Even though we have free will, we do not have to worry about sin abounding (getting worse) in the world anymore than worrying about the weather. According to Romans 5:20 we can be assured that - “For wherever sin exists in abundance and is multiplying and constantly expanding, that is precisely the time and place where grace is poured out in a far greater, surpassing quantity.” paraphrased. That is why I do not need be anxious over sin expanding in this world. However, if I don't believe this, I am likely to act defeated, fearful and and lose faith that God will still save as He always has. I don't see any reason for a believer to be anxious about current events although I am not completely free yet myself.

Climate change is one of many fears we don't need to live with as believers. Nor the expansion of sin. Nor politics, etc, etc. and that, to me, is how we are able to experience that peace of heart that goes beyond understanding. And as free will beings we can chose to obey and trust what God says to live in a peaceful state or not. Why would any believer chose to not live in a peaceful state of mind ? Isn't this due to worldly influences that we should be anxious about things or other Christian influences that seem to believe we can't be anxious free ?
Romans 6:1
English Standard Version

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
The obvious answer is 'no we should not'. Nevertheless we need not worry about sin increasing in the world either. Sin has it's consequences in a believer's life so we need not worry about our own sinning but rather confess our sinning and believe that Jesus blood goes on cleansing us from all sin. If we focus our thoughts on what Phillipians 4:8 tells us to, the result will be an experience with the God who gives us peace.
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Sudsy

Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Sudsy »

Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 1:37 pm
Sudsy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:13 amClimate change is one of many fears we don't need to live with as believers. Nor the expansion of sin. Nor politics, etc, etc. and that, to me, is how we are able to experience that peace of heart that goes beyond understanding. And as free will beings we can chose to obey and trust what God says to live in a peaceful state or not. Why would any believer chose to not live in a peaceful state of mind ? Isn't this due to worldly influences that we should be anxious about things or other Christian influences that seem to believe we can't be anxious free ?
You may believe that climate change is a fear that you don't need to live with. That is a question of theology and faith.

Yes, I believe that and I believe it is the promise for all who believe that it is one of the many things we need not fear. The scripture has hundreds of 'fear nots' and is a good study in itself.

However the actions you take here on earth have an individual and collective effect on both the environment and society in which you live. We are not alone on this world. We share it with others. But I guess what responsibility you choose to take your own actions is for you to decide.

I agree we have a certain stewardship required of us with regard to this world and our fellow man. What I don't agree with is that fear of what may become of this world is the driver of why I participate in this area. I participate out of respect for God's creation.
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Robert
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Robert »

Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 1:37 pm However the actions you take here on earth have an individual and collective effect on both the environment and society in which you live. We are not alone on this world. We share it with others. But I guess what responsibility you choose to take your own actions is for you to decide.
I really have no issue with this. I think it is a good perspective. I do not see co2 as an issue. From the science I have researched and learned from, it does not have as dramatic affect that some are claiming it does. I also do not think we affect the climate as much as some claim, but I agree we do affect it some especially on a local level.

I do not see either as a crisis, but I do see both local and global effects as something w should be good stewards in.

I do not see driving cars as a big issue, but I think we should work to reduce desertification and find ways to improve lifestyle of arid regions. This means more energy and food, which requires water, are key to help impoverished nations. Restricting energy is harmful, not helpful.

Ken, I actually think we agree on a lot of how we should work to improve out ecology and lesson our impact, I do think we disagree on how and what is the more important issues to do that.
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Ken
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Ken »

Robert wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 6:47 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 1:37 pm However the actions you take here on earth have an individual and collective effect on both the environment and society in which you live. We are not alone on this world. We share it with others. But I guess what responsibility you choose to take your own actions is for you to decide.
I really have no issue with this. I think it is a good perspective. I do not see co2 as an issue. From the science I have researched and learned from, it does not have as dramatic affect that some are claiming it does. I also do not think we affect the climate as much as some claim, but I agree we do affect it some especially on a local level.

I do not see either as a crisis, but I do see both local and global effects as something w should be good stewards in.

I do not see driving cars as a big issue, but I think we should work to reduce desertification and find ways to improve lifestyle of arid regions. This means more energy and food, which requires water, are key to help impoverished nations. Restricting energy is harmful, not helpful.

Ken, I actually think we agree on a lot of how we should work to improve out ecology and lesson our impact, I do think we disagree on how and what is the more important issues to do that.
I have spent most of my life working in and teaching science. And the more I learn the more I realize how inter-connected our natural world is.

My actual biggest concerns are about the protection and restoration of natural habitats. Because I have come to learn that wild spaces are hugely important as are connections between them. So, for example, in Texas I was dismayed by the endless uncontrolled sprawl that now reaches from the DFW metroplex all they way to the Oklahoma border. But I was also hugely interested in things like restoring prairie habitats by ripping out all the invasive mesquite and cedar trees that have turned much of the area around Waco from what were once rolling grasslands into impenetrable shrub lands that suck up all the groundwater and do not support much of the original wildlife of the area. That means getting people to do lots of burning and chopping and expensive land clearing which can be a hard sell in an area were most of the rural property is in private hands and people have learned to fear fire. It doesn't mean appropriating private property for parks and government-run nature reserves But getting people to recognize the value of managing their own lands in a more sustainable manner.

I frankly do not care in the slightest about lots of trendy lefty things like veganism and animal rights and whether chickens should be free range and all that nonsense. I find a lot of it annoying because none of it has anything at all to do with the environment. And frankly if we can keep our chicken farms more densely packed it means less wildlands need to be sacrificed.

The whole climate thing is just one piece of a larger puzzle. I like more walkable and bikeable cities and I like to shop locally. Not just because it is more carbon-efficient. But also because I prefer that sort of built environment over endless car-centric sprawl for other reasons entirely. It is all inter-connected. And the sort of built environment that is more carbon-neutral is also going to be more people oriented and superior for a whole lot of other reasons that have nothing to do with climate change. Just like the Amish who have a very small carbon footprint, not because they are deliberately trying to do so, but because they are living in simple tight-knit communities that are just more energy efficient and superior in a whole lot of ways.

I currently bike to work here in the Vancouver area. It is a 12.5 mile ride diagonally across suburban Vancouver so I use an e-bike so I can get there in a reasonable amount of time without arriving in a pool of sweat as would be the case if I rode my road bike. I completely enjoy it, I get 35 min of exercise twice a day and have lost weight. It also means we don't have to buy another car. But a similar commute would not have been possible in Waco or much of suburban Dallas because the built environment just doesn't support bike commuting. Vancouver is not some cutting edge city when it comes to biking, but I do have wide bike lanes for 11 out of the 12 miles of my commute so it safe and easy. That would be impossible in Dallas with its maze of freeways and arterial streets that lack even the most rudimentary bike infrastructures. State law in Washington requires new road construction to accommodate bikes and pedestrians. State law in Texas does not and the results are obvious. One of the reasons (among many) that we moved from Texas back to the Pacific Northwest. I got tired of depending on cars for everything. Even though paradoxically the recreational rural riding is far superior in Texas.

So while climate change is not really my #1 issue, I do get offended by some of the climate denialism that comes from certain political sectors that are largely beholden to the fossil fuel industry. Interestingly, in 10 years of teaching HS biology in the Baptist and evangelical heartland of Waco Texas I never once got any parental pushback on evolution which I taught every year to many hundreds of students over the years. But I did get furious pushback from some parents on the subject of climate change. Even though I was teaching EXACTLY to the Texas state curriculum standards for Aquatic Science and Environmental Science that covered climate change. Mostly because they are so old they were written BEFORE much of the current political fervor about global warming when it was uncontroversial. Which should tell you how old and established much of the science is if it was being written into the Texas curriculum standards back in the 1980s and 1990s. And now they are like a hot poker. The state can't really touch them without creating a big embarrassing political firestorm.
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Josh

Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Josh »

The whole climate thing is just one piece of a larger puzzle. I like more walkable and bikeable cities and I like to shop locally. Not just because it is more carbon-efficient. But also because I prefer that sort of built environment over endless car-centric sprawl for other reasons entirely. It is all inter-connected.
And the only way you're going to have walkable, bikeable cities is if crime levels are low enough that (a) your bike doesn't get immediately stolen, and (b) you can walk without fear of getting mugged or otherwise assaulted.

Cars provide a certain amount of defence that make it possible to transit through dangerous areas, and they are harder to steal than bikes. That's the main reason ordinary people rely so much on cars. Clean up the crime problem, and a lot more people would be open to walking and bicycling.

Keep ignoring the crime problem, and more and more people will need to hide in their cars.
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Ken
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 8:03 pm
The whole climate thing is just one piece of a larger puzzle. I like more walkable and bikeable cities and I like to shop locally. Not just because it is more carbon-efficient. But also because I prefer that sort of built environment over endless car-centric sprawl for other reasons entirely. It is all inter-connected.
And the only way you're going to have walkable, bikeable cities is if crime levels are low enough that (a) your bike doesn't get immediately stolen, and (b) you can walk without fear of getting mugged or otherwise assaulted.

Cars provide a certain amount of defence that make it possible to transit through dangerous areas, and they are harder to steal than bikes. That's the main reason ordinary people rely so much on cars. Clean up the crime problem, and a lot more people would be open to walking and bicycling.

Keep ignoring the crime problem, and more and more people will need to hide in their cars.
I live in a bikeable city that has a very low crime rate. A lot of it is about infrastructure and having safe secure places to bike and park. A lot of it is about the environment that we choose to build for ourselves. Here are 30 people getting coffee in two different built environments. I know which one I prefer, which one is more civilized, and frankly more reminiscent of Biblical times. And also which one has less of an impact on the environment

Image
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Josh

Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 8:15 pm I live in a bikeable city that has a very low crime rate. A lot of it is about infrastructure and having safe secure places to bike and park. A lot of it is about the environment that we choose to build for ourselves. Here are 30 people getting coffee in two different built environments. I know which one I prefer, which one is more civilized, and frankly more reminiscent of Biblical times. And also which one has less of an impact on the environment
A low crime rate is due to punishing criminals with punishments so harsh that they don't want to commit crimes there, and either don't do it all or go do it elsewhere.

"Safe secure places to bike and park" is dependent on actually punishing criminals who steal bikes. Places like NYC and SF don't do this, so you can't really do anything with a bicycle there unless you plan to drag it inside with you.

Of course it is nice to be in a city that has a "very low crime rate". I live in a place with a very low crime rate myself. But that is a prerequisite for the things you think should be universal like more bicycling, being less car dependent, and so on.

Many people don't have the luxury of living in a wealthy area like you do, so they need to have cars to keep themselves and their families safe. They may have to live in a poorer area and commute to a job that means going through dangerous areas. Without a car, they would get robbed and assaulted.
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MaxPC

Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by MaxPC »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 8:31 pm
A low crime rate is due to punishing criminals with punishments so harsh that they don't want to commit crimes there, and either don't do it all or go do it elsewhere.

"Safe secure places to bike and park" is dependent on actually punishing criminals who steal bikes. Places like NYC and SF don't do this, so you can't really do anything with a bicycle there unless you plan to drag it inside with you.

Of course it is nice to be in a city that has a "very low crime rate". I live in a place with a very low crime rate myself. But that is a prerequisite for the things you think should be universal like more bicycling, being less car dependent, and so on.

Many people don't have the luxury of living in a wealthy area like you do, so they need to have cars to keep themselves and their families safe. They may have to live in a poorer area and commute to a job that means going through dangerous areas. Without a car, they would get robbed and assaulted.
Indeed and even with a car there may not be enough protection if the criminals are numerous enough to surround the vehicle which has happened in certain municipalities such as NYC. Yet locked car doors can provide a measure of protection if it can delay aggressive entry.

Subways and metro bus lines in cities are dangerous for individuals who commute alone.
Those who are impoverished and cannot afford a car; who are forced to work night shifts; are particularly vulnerable to becoming a victim. Public transport is only effective if it is secure and safe for individuals.
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Josh

Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Josh »

MaxPC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2023 9:55 pm Subways and metro bus lines in cities are dangerous for individuals who commute alone.
Those who are impoverished and cannot afford a car; who are forced to work night shifts; are particularly vulnerable to becoming a victim. Public transport is only effective if it is secure and safe for individuals.
The Metro in L.A. has become overrun as basically a place for junkies to shoot up drugs, and the police aren't allowed to stop people from smoking in them.

So much for all the anti-smoking bans that California enacted.
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