New Testament teaching on Interest/Usury

[Josh]

Are Holdemans more likely to form partnerships or invest in a business and less likely to loan money than other plain Anabaptists? No agenda. Just curious.

Loans seem common. Business partnerships are also common.

There isn’t much risk of default on a loan. Loans are made all the time to build church buildings, school buildings, and other types of facilities. The church has a loan program for teachers to take out a loan to buy a car and for young families to get a loan to help buy a house in a new area.

What is the point of the church running a loan program for car loans and mortgages when there are so many commercial banks and credit unions available? Doesn't that tie up a lot of church funds that could better put to use in other ways?

A few posts ago, you were calling us (and the Amish) hypocrites for being willing of use commercial banks at all. Now you’re telling us we should do so more often?

[Ken]

Loans seem common. Business partnerships are also common.

There isn’t much risk of default on a loan. Loans are made all the time to build church buildings, school buildings, and other types of facilities. The church has a loan program for teachers to take out a loan to buy a car and for young families to get a loan to help buy a house in a new area.

What is the point of the church running a loan program for car loans and mortgages when there are so many commercial banks and credit unions available? Doesn't that tie up a lot of church funds that could better put to use in other ways?

A few posts ago, you were calling us (and the Amish) hypocrites for being willing of use commercial banks at all. Now you’re telling us we should do so more often?

So the purpose of running a church-based finance operation for car loans and mortgages is simply to avoid paying/charging interest?

I don't have any problem with paying or charging interest in a fair (non-exploitative marketplace). Money has a cost just like any other commodity in the modern world. We no longer live in a Bronze Age economy where we trade in silver shekels and talents of gold. That same world had slavery, polygamy, stonings, revenge honor killings, genocide, and a lot of other customs that we no longer practice. I do have a problem with taking advantage or exploiting the poor and misfortunes of others which is what I think the Bible is actually talking about.

I do question whether it is the best use of church resources to tie up a lot of money in ordinary consumer loans simply to avoid paying market rates of interest. Especially if there were other uses for those same funds like charity work or evangelism. But it is your church. No one is compelled to join your church or tithe, just like no one is compelled to borrow money for a new car or new house.

[Josh]

So the purpose of running a church-based finance operation for car loans and mortgages is simply to avoid paying/charging interest?

Yes.

I don't have any problem with paying or charging interest in a fair (non-exploitative marketplace).

I’m aware you don’t. We believe differently than you do.

Money has a cost just like any other commodity in the modern world. We no longer live in a Bronze Age economy where we trade in silver shekels and talents of gold. That same world had slavery, polygamy, stonings, revenge honor killings, genocide, and a lot of other customs that we no longer practice. I do have a problem with taking advantage or exploiting the poor and misfortunes of others which is what I think the Bible is actually talking about.

I’m aware you think charging interest is somehow virtuous and good. I don’t think that it is.

I do question whether it is the best use of church resources to tie up a lot of money in ordinary consumer loans simply to avoid paying market rates of interest. Especially if there were other uses for those same funds like charity work or evangelism. But it is your church. No one is compelled to join your church or tithe, just like no one is compelled to borrow money for a new car or new house.

You are welcome to join our church, and then you would be welcome to object to providing car loans to teachers or down payment assistance to young families.

If you would like to learn more about our church’s financial arrangements, our books are open, and you can even get a free copy of our financial report booklet.

[Ken]

So the purpose of running a church-based finance operation for car loans and mortgages is simply to avoid paying/charging interest?

Yes.

I don't have any problem with paying or charging interest in a fair (non-exploitative marketplace).

I’m aware you don’t. We believe differently than you do.

Money has a cost just like any other commodity in the modern world. We no longer live in a Bronze Age economy where we trade in silver shekels and talents of gold. That same world had slavery, polygamy, stonings, revenge honor killings, genocide, and a lot of other customs that we no longer practice. I do have a problem with taking advantage or exploiting the poor and misfortunes of others which is what I think the Bible is actually talking about.

I’m aware you think charging interest is somehow virtuous and good. I don’t think that it is.

I do question whether it is the best use of church resources to tie up a lot of money in ordinary consumer loans simply to avoid paying market rates of interest. Especially if there were other uses for those same funds like charity work or evangelism. But it is your church. No one is compelled to join your church or tithe, just like no one is compelled to borrow money for a new car or new house.

You are welcome to join our church, and then you would be welcome to object to providing car loans to teachers or down payment assistance to young families.

If you would like to learn more about our church’s financial arrangements, our books are open, and you can even get a free copy of our financial report booklet.

I don't think charging interest is either virtuous and good or immoral and bad. It is simply a tool like any other that can be used for good or used for bad. Circumstances matter.

Interest is no different from any other pricing mechanism that people commonly use such as buying eggs in volume at wholesale prices and selling them at retail to make a profit. As long as people aren't being exploited through things like monopolies or abusive relationships it is just ordinary commerce.

[Biblical Anabaptist]

So the purpose of running a church-based finance operation for car loans and mortgages is simply to avoid paying/charging interest?

Yes.

I don't have any problem with paying or charging interest in a fair (non-exploitative marketplace).

I’m aware you don’t. We believe differently than you do.

Money has a cost just like any other commodity in the modern world. We no longer live in a Bronze Age economy where we trade in silver shekels and talents of gold. That same world had slavery, polygamy, stonings, revenge honor killings, genocide, and a lot of other customs that we no longer practice. I do have a problem with taking advantage or exploiting the poor and misfortunes of others which is what I think the Bible is actually talking about.

I’m aware you think charging interest is somehow virtuous and good. I don’t think that it is.

I do question whether it is the best use of church resources to tie up a lot of money in ordinary consumer loans simply to avoid paying market rates of interest. Especially if there were other uses for those same funds like charity work or evangelism. But it is your church. No one is compelled to join your church or tithe, just like no one is compelled to borrow money for a new car or new house.

You are welcome to join our church, and then you would be welcome to object to providing car loans to teachers or down payment assistance to young families.

If you would like to learn more about our church’s financial arrangements, our books are open, and you can even get a free copy of our financial report booklet.

I don't think charging interest is either virtuous and good or immoral and bad. It is simply a tool like any other that can be used for good or used for bad. Circumstances matter.

Interest is no different from any other pricing mechanism that people commonly use such as buying eggs in volume at wholesale prices and selling them at retail to make a profit. As long as people aren't being exploited through things like monopolies or abusive relationships it is just ordinary commerce.

Explain to me how you think charging interest is not exploitation. The folks who truly need the money are often turned away or charged a higher interest because of the "risk factor". I could never understand how charging a higher interest rate to a high-risk situation does not put the individual at a greater risk for failure.

[Ken]

Yes.



I’m aware you don’t. We believe differently than you do.



I’m aware you think charging interest is somehow virtuous and good. I don’t think that it is.



You are welcome to join our church, and then you would be welcome to object to providing car loans to teachers or down payment assistance to young families.

If you would like to learn more about our church’s financial arrangements, our books are open, and you can even get a free copy of our financial report booklet.

I don't think charging interest is either virtuous and good or immoral and bad. It is simply a tool like any other that can be used for good or used for bad. Circumstances matter.

Interest is no different from any other pricing mechanism that people commonly use such as buying eggs in volume at wholesale prices and selling them at retail to make a profit. As long as people aren't being exploited through things like monopolies or abusive relationships it is just ordinary commerce.

Explain to me how you think charging interest is not exploitation. The folks who truly need the money are often turned away or charged a higher interest because of the "risk factor". I could never understand how charging a higher interest rate to a high-risk situation does not put the individual at a greater risk for failure.

It depends on why they are higher risk. There are plenty of good honest people of very modest means who diligently pay their bills and have stellar credit. Who are very cautious about taking out credit and diligent about managing their debt. My parents were like that. Instead of buying things on credit we just learned to live frugally. I survived a childhood of hand-me-down clothes, sharing a bedroom in a small nondescript house, eating from the garden instead of eating out, and vacationing by tent camping at state parks and visiting family rather than hotels in vacation destinations.

Just like there are plenty of irresponsible people with higher incomes who spend irresponsibly, fail to pay their bills, and ruin their credit on stupid things like extravagant vacations or expensive bass boats. Some of them were my neighbors. One couple who managed their money so poorly that they lost their house in 2008 or 2009 during the great recession. Not because they were poor, but because they were foolish. Their income was probably over $100k but they ran up enormous debts by doing things taking out a HELOC to spend $50k on custom plantation blinds, fancy vacations and what must have been at least a $150,000 wake boat. And who knows how much on fancy clothes and eating out. And there was a divorce involved with further torpedoed their finances. They deserved to have bad credit.

And yes, sometimes people do fall on hard times and fall through the cracks through no fault of their own. That is why we have a social welfare system and faith-based charities and other alternatives to loan sharks. That isn't why we have credit cards.

As for how credit can be used for good?

Some years ago we had a Vietnamese refugee family that our church sponsored. The father was a skilled mechanic but not being paid very well by the local shop who first hired him. He took out a business loan with my uncle's help (help navigating the financial system and maybe co-signing but not monetary help) and opened his own garage which took a tidy sum of money. With hard work he was able to build a very successful business and put all his 5 children through college, med school, dental school, etc. and now they are all quite successful. I see no exploitation there at all and absent the financing to open his own shop he'd still be working away at mediocre wages for another shop.

[ohio jones]

Let's remember that the subject of the thread is New Testament teaching, rather than how to explain away that teaching.

[Ken]

Let's remember that the subject of the thread is New Testament teaching, rather than how to explain away that teaching.

My argument is that MEANING behind the teaching is that we should not exploit the poor through debt peonage. Not that credit per se in a modern economy (with deliberately managed inflation) is inherently evil.

We have also at times in our history managed our economy under a rigid and strict gold standard with a tight money supply (tight credit) and the result was misery for millions of rural farmers. Read up on William Jennings Bryan's "Cross of Gold" speech and the Populist Movement.

[ken_sylvania]

Let's remember that the subject of the thread is New Testament teaching, rather than how to explain away that teaching.

My argument is that MEANING behind the teaching is that we should not exploit the poor through debt peonage. Not that credit per se in a modern economy (with deliberately managed inflation) is inherently evil.

It's really a pity that Jesus couldn't articulate what he meant to say, and said something different instead.

[mike]

It should also be noted that in medieval Europe Jews were largely prohibited from owning property and participating in craft guilds (carpentry, masonry, textile making, etc.). And so were prohibited from farming and most ordinary trades that involved working with their hands unless they converted to Christianity. Meaning finance and trade (shop keeping) were the few means of making a living that were available to them.

The entirety of laws for Jewish people as opposed to "proper" citizens in medieval Christendom deserves it's own thread. To your point, Jews often had no real way to live except through lending at interest, often with others' money.

I would like to know what your opinion is, based on your view that Jesus forbad charging interest, of how loaning money (both as a borrower and lender) should look like in Christian society today.