Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:14 pmWhy? I never planned on pointing to any specific posts or people. I'm asking you to take the word of God's opinion on how Christians should act, and on how that is different from Phariseeism. Frankly, I was expecting this to be more like a Bible study, I wasn't expecting to hit a nerve like this.
Do you believe that the sins of the Pharisees are just as worldly as other sins? Do you think that Jesus took them seriously? If so, how do you think we as Christians, should apply that in our lives? How does that affect the way we post on forums? I think that's a question you are avoiding with a LOT of energy.
Sounds like you have the makings of a great thread. If you don’t want to participate in this one, you certainly don’t have to.
It's Valerie's thread. So far, at least, she is not implying that I am off track. I am largely responding to these questions in the original post:
Valerie wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 6:33 am
Maybe we need to step back from that to see what a Pharisee actually was and "why" Jesus often rebuked them. Then perhaps it will help us understand why some may be seen as Pharisees for engaging in the spiritual warfare of contending for the faith, the truth-
Maybe posting some actual examples to see where we may be similar or make distinctions.
What faults do we read about Pharisees that we need to caution against?
Valerie wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 6:33 am
Maybe we need to step back from that to see what a Pharisee actually was and "why" Jesus often rebuked them. Then perhaps it will help us understand why some may be seen as Pharisees for engaging in the spiritual warfare of contending for the faith, the truth-
Maybe posting some actual examples to see where we may be similar or make distinctions.
What faults do we read about Pharisees that we need to caution against?
Valerie wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 6:33 am
Maybe we need to step back from that to see what a Pharisee actually was and "why" Jesus often rebuked them. Then perhaps it will help us understand why some may be seen as Pharisees for engaging in the spiritual warfare of contending for the faith, the truth-
Maybe posting some actual examples to see where we may be similar or make distinctions.
What faults do we read about Pharisees that we need to caution against?
How would you answer these questions?
Missing the middle one
Sure. Provide examples. I have provided some. Perhaps others can also provide some?
Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:32 pm
Let’s say Boot is a Pharisee. How would you prove that wrong?
Or myself. Feel free to pick on me too.
Why put specific people on trial to point fingers at them? Isn't that what the Pharisees loved to do?
I think Pharisee religion is pretty natural to most human beings. I think that's what you get by default. If we do not want to be Pharisees, I think we have to keep turning to Scripture, by the Holy Spirit. So I would be very surprised if any of us is completely innocent of being a Pharisee. Who is in a position to cast the first stone?
I think a better question is this: When we fight sin, how do we do that in a Christlike way? How is that different from doing it like the Pharisees?
An example to me is when we act like a religious snob we are acting like the Pharisees that Jesus talked about. Text is Luke 18:9-14. A holier-than-thou attitude. Those 'who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else' (NLT verse 9).
Sudsy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:47 pm
Those 'who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else' (NLT verse 9).
I like that:
1. Having great confidence in our own righteousness.
2. Scorning others
Scorn
1: open dislike and disrespect or mockery often mixed with indignation
2: an expression of contempt or derision
3: an object of extreme disdain, contempt, or derision : something contemptible
Here's the text you quoted:
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
We should not love the world or the things in the world. But we should embrace the ministry of reconciliation, engaging the world as Jesus did.
We do strongly oppose what the world stands for and speak out against it. There are Pharisaical ways to do that. There are Christlike ways to do that. That's why looking carefully at Scripture and learning from it is valuable. The sins of the Pharisees are just as worldly as any other sins.
Here's the pattern I am talking about. I just highlighted the part you are not responding to. Now let's go on to the place where you take offense:
GaryK wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:00 amUntil you give us specific examples of posts on MN that strongly oppose what the world stands for and of speaking out against it that was done in Pharisaical ways, we can't determine if it was Pharisaical. You seem to want us just to take your word for it that it's true. I specifically responded to some not as vague things you see on MN and in none of those things did I see Phariseeism.
Why? Frankly, I was expecting this to be more like a Bible study, I wasn't expecting to hit a nerve like this. I never planned on pointing to any specific posts or people, and I said that there were some posts that motivated me only because you asked me. I'm asking you to take the word of God's opinion on how Christians should act, and on how that is different from Phariseeism. If I misunderstand anything in the Bible, feel free to correct me.
Do you believe that the sins of the Pharisees are just as worldly as other sins? Do you think that Jesus took them seriously? If so, how do you think we as Christians, should apply that in our lives? How does that affect the way we post on forums? I think that's a question you are avoiding with a LOT of energy.
Wow, talk about reading into things. I did not take offense in the least. I responded directly to the part you just said I didn't respond to. I even used some of the terminology you used. Remember, this is Valerie's thread and I'm responding accordingly.
Why are you so reluctant to point out posts you think are Pharisaical? That's the reason this whole conversation started in the first place. After all, you seem to be making the point that it's fine to do so if it's being done in a religious context and I'm assuming the types of posts you find problematic are being written from a religious context. You have made the point quite clear that Jesus spoke very plainly and negatively about the Pharisees. Feel free to follow Jesus' example here. I've given you permission to do so with my posts and will not take offense if you do.
I think most of us know what the scriptures say about these things and none of us believe we are Pharisaical.
Once again, you bring up the way we post on forums and that's what's at the heart of this discussion. Provide some examples of the way we post on forums that you think are problematic and then let's look at the scriptures to see if they are Pharisaical or not. That's what Valerie wanted from this thread.
GaryK wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:59 pm
Once again, you bring up the way we post on forums and that's what's at the heart of this discussion. Provide some examples of the way we post on forums that you think are problematic and then let's look at the scriptures to see if they are Pharisaical or not. That's what Valerie wanted from this thread.
Valerie, is that what you really want in this thread? That's not what I saw in the OP.
If that's really what's at the heart of this discussion, I really should drop out of this thread, because I have zero interest in that. I doubt it would be anything other than a stupid fight. I think it's much better to study what the Bible teaches and let each of us think about how to apply it in our lives.
GaryK wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:59 pm
I think most of us know what the scriptures say about these things and none of us believe we are Pharisaical.
Interesting.
I find these scriptures challenging. Precisely because practicing Christlike holiness and love is hard with real people - especially since I am a real person myself. I'm pretty sure that (1) I have not yet mastered what the Bible teaches on this subject and (2) I have a lot to learn about applying it in my own life. I wrote those summaries partly to answer your question, but partly to try to form my own overview for my own understanding.
GaryK wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:59 pm
I think most of us know what the scriptures say about these things and none of us believe we are Pharisaical.
Interesting.
I find these scriptures challenging. Precisely because practicing Christlike holiness and love is hard with real people - especially since I am a real person myself. I'm pretty sure that (1) I have not yet mastered what the Bible teaches on this subject and (2) I have a lot to learn about applying it in my own life.
I invited you to share before but you didn’t seem interested in sharing your own experience.
