Münster: It's relationship to Anabaptism.

[Ernie]

Münster:

Why it should it or should it not be included as part of the Anabaptist story/heritage?

If you think it should be included, how much attention should it get?

Is Münster a family member?

Have Anabaptists ever supported religious persecution? Is political persecution based on religious beliefs something that Anabaptists would generally support?

Münster? Or is that the family member we don't talk about?

[Ernie]

My take...

There are anabaptists, and then there are Anabaptists. I don't think Münster should be included with the latter. (Just like I don't think Christian's today should call themselves Anabaptists if they don't stand for what was commonly embraced by early Anabaptists.)

[Ken]

They certainly considered themselves Anabaptists as did the wider community and authorities.

It is probably best considered a branch of Anabaptism gone wrong. And it probably marked a turning point in Anabaptism and informed future generations of Anabaptists of the perils of theocratic rule, blindly following charismatic leaders, and the entangling church and state.

Disavowing Munster is kind of like the Catholics disavowing the Spanish Inquisition or Knights Templar. It's part of history for better or worse. You don't get to just pick the good stuff.

[Neto]

They are, and they aren't. If 'anabaptism' is defined solely on the basis of the word's etymological meaning ("re-baptize"), then yes, the Munsterites were anabaptists. But I also wonder if that term was ever actually used of them by the Dutch and Spanish over-lords who controlled that part of the Low Countries during that period, because the common Dutch term was a different one, one meaning "baptism-minded". But perhaps the question is the same, regardless of the answer to that question. But as Ernie points out, that is only one part of what is meant by the term "anabaptism" (whether you capitalize it or not, I think), both historically, and currently. The fact that they were not accepted by others of the believer's baptism persuasion at that time is, I think, telling.

Again, the question comes back to "Who gets to define a person or group?". There are people now who define themselves as "Amish" who are not accepted as such by any other Amish group. People also often refer to a certain very conservative group in Ukraine as "Ukrainian Amish", but they do not have, nor have they ever had, any connection to or influence from any Amish group or person. Are they Amish? No, they are not, even though Amish here in the States like to refer to them as such, all because they do not drive vehicles. That is a very narrow definition of what it means to be 'Amish'. Some Amishmen I used to work with in a tractor implement manufacturing operation used this single deliminator to determine if a person is Amish or not - "If you drive vehicles, you are not Amish." They were using this determiner to say that the Beachy Amish-Mennonites are not Amish at all, even though they claim to be, and are similar to both New & Old Order Amish in many other ways. (I told them that the Banawa were "more Amish" than they, because they walk everywhere..... )

[RZehr]

An idea:
Not drive, or driving - this issue is not the entrance into Amishdom. Many things working together determines qualification.
During a car is rather the exit point to disqualification for a group?

[Josh]

Generally speaking, one becomes Amish by (a) being born to Amish parents, (b) raised in an Amish family, and then (c) choosing to join and be baptised into the Amish church as an adult.

One leaves the Amish by declaring that one no longer wishes to be Amish, or else by blatantly violating boundaries the church has set for appropriate behaviour, whether it is promoting end times prophecy / conspiracy theories relentlessly, buying and driving a car, or refusing to wear Amish clothes.

This is quite different than other Anabaptist groups.

[ohio jones]

But back to the Münster Amish: I think of the Anabaptist movement as a funnel, very broad at the beginning with all sorts of strange ideas that eventually got sorted out as the movement matured and coalesced. So the Münsterites were rejected, the Schwertler were rejected, the naaktlopers were rejected, along with other fringe groups that had no solid foundation or staying power.

[Ken]

But back to the Münster Amish: I think of the Anabaptist movement as a funnel, very broad at the beginning with all sorts of strange ideas that eventually got sorted out as the movement matured and coalesced. So the Münsterites were rejected, the Schwertler were rejected, the naaktlopers were rejected, along with other fringe groups that had no solid foundation or staying power.

I think the opposite analogy is more apt.

Anabaptism started with some basic universal principles outlined by Menno Simons (and other early thinkers) and since then has branched off in a lot of different directions and continues to do so. Some of those branches proved cancerous and died out (Münsterites ). Others continued forging their own independent paths (Amish, Hutterites, Brethren, etc.)

There are other branches or sects of Anabaptism that have also dead-ended or died out for a variety of reasons, in the early days and more recently, just not in as spectacular of a fashion as the Münsterites .

[Josh]

Anabaptism started with some basic universal principles outlined by Menno Simons

Menno Simons didn’t start Anabaptism and didn’t even found the Swiss Brethren, whose descendants (the Amish) are the most significant branch of Anabaptism today.

More significantly, adult baptism is practiced by Pentecostals and Baptists who make up a large fraction of the Christian world. Yet those people have zip all to do with anything Menno Simons taught.

[ohio jones]

I think the opposite analogy is more apt.

Anabaptism started with some basic universal principles outlined by Menno Simons

Menno Simons is part of the neck of the funnel; there's a whole lot (including Münster) that came before him.

Certainly one could place an upside down funnel in the late 19th century extending to the present day. But that doesn't seem relevant to this thread.