Modern Day Pharisees

[Bootstrap]

Okay, I posted some scripture for you. It only became a fight when you refused to follow what the OP requested and Gary and myself challenged you on it.

Could you please give me a link to the post where that happened? I may have missed something, I didn't think I was going against a request from Valerie.

I thought much of what I did was simply give a thorough answer to this question, looking at most of the Scriptures that provide an answer, with simple summary statements:

Maybe we need to step back from that to see what a Pharisee actually was and "why" Jesus often rebuked them. Then perhaps it will help us understand why some may be seen as Pharisees for engaging in the spiritual warfare of contending for the faith, the truth-

Maybe posting some actual examples to see where we may be similar or make distinctions.

What faults do we read about Pharisees that we need to caution against?

I agreed that was the best approach. So I followed it.

I also disagreed with her on a subject she had raised. But I don't recall her asking me not to.

[Bootstrap]

I’m not interested in a fight but I suggest you consider recanting your insinuations if you don’t care to defend or deny them.

I can say this one more time: I am not calling any particular individual or group Pharisees. Some people have invited me to render judgement, I have been trying to resist that. And I think I would have to take some real time to form solid opinions about individuals - I haven't taken that time. "Love does not keep a record of wrongs", so why would I bother? That's really not me. I don't keep a tally. So I really don't know what to recant here - recant your misinterpretation of my intentions?

Every time people insist that's what I'm doing, I shrug and say, "I don't think so". I think you and Gary are simply wrong about what is going on in my mind. And I suspect I know better than anyone else, it's my mind. I don't know how to convince you. Just telling you that has no effect, the conversation goes on and on, endlessly. The fact that it does makes me feel like you actually are interested in a fight, because that's what you keep turning to. And not because we are thoroughly discussing what Jesus said about the sins of the Pharisees, that's not what we are discussing, that's what gets lost in the conversation.

I do believe that sin exists and that it is a real problem. That doesn't mean I'm sure I know who is guilty of precisely what sin. And it doesn't mean I don't realize that I am also a sinner.

[GaryK]

I’m not interested in a fight but I suggest you consider recanting your insinuations if you don’t care to defend or deny them.

I can say this one more time: I am not calling any particular individual or group Pharisees. And I think I would have to take some real time to form solid opinions about individuals - I haven't taken that time. "Love does not keep a record of wrongs", so why would I bother? That's really not me.

So every time people insist that's what I'm doing, I shrug and say, "I don't think so". I think you and Gary are simply wrong about what is going on in my mind. And I suspect I know better than anyone else, it's my mind. I don't know how to convince you. Just telling you that has no effect, the conversation goes on and on, endlessly. And not because we are thoroughly discussing what Jesus said about this.

I do believe that sin exists and that it is a real problem. That doesn't mean I'm sure I know who is guilty of precisely what sin. And it doesn't mean I don't realize that I am also a sinner.

You said you were surprised that I haven't seen Phariseeism on MN, which means you think you have. Give us an example so that we can have a discussion about whether the example constitutes Phariseeism or not. Valerie asked for actual examples. Can you give us one?

Also, I don't think either Soloist or I have ever suggested that you have called anyone or a group Pharisees. I don't recall you doing that. If we have, please provide the links. But you have certainly insinuated that you have seen Phariseeism on MN. And in looking at the OP in your thread, it seems pretty clear to me that something or things said on MN was the reason for the thread. I will be completely fine with you using me as an example if I am one that you believe has been involved in Phariseeism. I may reject it, but will not be offended if you do.

[GaryK]

Okay, I posted some scripture for you. It only became a fight when you refused to follow what the OP requested and Gary and myself challenged you on it.

Could you please give me a link to the post where that happened? I may have missed something, I didn't think I was going against a request from Valerie.

I thought much of what I did was simply give a thorough answer to this question, looking at most of the Scriptures that provide an answer, with simple summary statements:

Maybe we need to step back from that to see what a Pharisee actually was and "why" Jesus often rebuked them. Then perhaps it will help us understand why some may be seen as Pharisees for engaging in the spiritual warfare of contending for the faith, the truth-

Maybe posting some actual examples to see where we may be similar or make distinctions.

What faults do we read about Pharisees that we need to caution against?

I agreed that was the best approach. So I followed it.

I also disagreed with her on a subject she had raised. But I don't recall her asking me not to.

These are the parts you left out of Valerie's post and explains where she wanted to go with the thread.

I'm inclined to start this topic after Pharisees were brought up in another topic.

Not sure where to start with this but i do think it's worthy of discussion.

Why?

Today, "some" Christians while contending for the Truth are being compared and/or equated to Pharisees.

Who is a Pharisee today? (found this statement online)
In a Christian context, a modern day “Pharisee” is someone who follows the impulse to be seen as righteous by obeying certain laws, while ignoring more important matters of the heart.

....

Question: Does it SEEM like to anyone else that the enemy of our souls may be using people to label Christians as Pharisees so that they will be silenced?

Anyway, if no one else is interested in contributing to this topic I will just kind of use it as a homework page.

[Bootstrap]

These are the parts you left out of Valerie's post and explains where she wanted to go with the thread.

Valerie is probably the best person to say whether I am violating her thread.

I assumed she also wanted answers to the part I quoted - which I provided. And I assumed it's OK for me to offer my own opinion on this part:

Question: Does it SEEM like to anyone else that the enemy of our souls may be using people to label Christians as Pharisees so that they will be silenced?

The early Christians certainly faced that. Here's what Jesus advised:

Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

“You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

“You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

But I think the bigger danger to Christians is not the sins of others. Or even the persecution of others. It's our self-righteousness, which is a daily temptation for just about every Christian. And the sins we need to be most scared of are not the sins of others. Spiritual smugness is a much greater danger.

Pharisees externalized sin, pointing to others, condemning them as sinners. Jesus calls us to draw near to him so his light can expose our sin and our failure to love sinners with compassion, just as he did. I think these two impulses are incompatible. You can follow Jesus or you can follow the Pharisees, but you can't really do both without a divided heart.

[Bootstrap]

But you have certainly insinuated that you have seen Phariseeism on MN. And in looking at the OP in your thread, it seems pretty clear to me that something or things said on MN was the reason for the thread.

Indeed. And I thought that direct confrontation was the wrong approach. I have sometimes preached about a sin that I thought was a danger to some in the congregation. In a sermon, I have never pointed fingers at specific people and called them out, or given the details of what I saw that inspired the sermon. I don't think that would bear good fruit. And I'm not going to identify this post or this person for you.

I know you find that frustrating, but I don't think you have to know that, and I will not do what I consider wrong. We've been around this block more than once. Do we have to keep repeating that conversation? If we keep going in circles on that same issue, how can that be anything other than a useless fight?

I think that Scripture is relevant. I think Jesus tells us how we should behave and how we should not behave. I think that's enough. That's what I would do in a sermon. Do you preach? If so, how do you approach this? Do you point fingers at specific people, give details of specific incidents of sin? Do I really have to prove, to your satisfaction, that the words of Jesus are relevant to Christians today?

If you look at the Ephesians thread itself, it's pretty clear what I am advocating:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5756

I think it tells us to keep our eyes on Jesus, on the things that are right and good and true. But it's so easy to get completely carried away with the things that are evil. I think Ephesians 5 gives us good guidance here: "Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord," and "For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret."

Ephesians tells us "it is shameful even to speak", but sometimes it feels like we speak about that constantly, dramatically, repeating the same old points over and over again.

I don't think that's good. Because we don't want to let all that evil stuff become the center of our thought life. And we especially want to avoid becoming "experts in all that is evil" or developing a prurient interest in it. And we also want to avoid self-righteousness, polishing our own righteousness by always pointing to the sinfulness of others. In Ephesians 5, I think it is telling us:

1. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord.
2. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.

I think that's what Jesus did. He didn't join the Pharisees in competing to see who could denounce sinners the loudest. He walked in the light and showed them what light looks like. In love. By doing that, he exposed what is evil and called them into the light.

[GaryK]

But you have certainly insinuated that you have seen Phariseeism on MN. And in looking at the OP in your thread, it seems pretty clear to me that something or things said on MN was the reason for the thread.

Indeed. And I thought that direct confrontation was the wrong approach. I have sometimes preached about a sin that I thought was a danger to some in the congregation. In a sermon, I have never pointed fingers at specific people and called them out, or given the details of what I saw that inspired the sermon. I don't think that would bear good fruit. And I'm not going to identify this post or this person for you.

I know you find that frustrating, but I don't think you have to know that, and I will not do what I consider wrong. We've been around this block more than once. Do we have to keep repeating that conversation? If we keep going in circles on that same issue, how can that be anything other than a useless fight?

I think that Scripture is relevant. I think Jesus tells us how we should behave and how we should not behave. I think that's enough. That's what I would do in a sermon. Do you preach? If so, how do you approach this? Do you point fingers at specific people, give details of specific incidents of sin? Do I really have to prove, to your satisfaction, that the words of Jesus are relevant to Christians today?

If you look at the Ephesians thread itself, it's pretty clear what I am advocating:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5756

I think it tells us to keep our eyes on Jesus, on the things that are right and good and true. But it's so easy to get completely carried away with the things that are evil. I think Ephesians 5 gives us good guidance here: "Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord," and "For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret."

Ephesians tells us "it is shameful even to speak", but sometimes it feels like we speak about that constantly, dramatically, repeating the same old points over and over again.

I don't think that's good. Because we don't want to let all that evil stuff become the center of our thought life. And we especially want to avoid becoming "experts in all that is evil" or developing a prurient interest in it. And we also want to avoid self-righteousness, polishing our own righteousness by always pointing to the sinfulness of others. In Ephesians 5, I think it is telling us:

1. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord.
2. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.

I think that's what Jesus did. He didn't join the Pharisees in competing to see who could denounce sinners the loudest. He walked in the light and showed them what light looks like. In love. By doing that, he exposed what is evil and called them into the light.

Then please call out the direct confrontation you feel is wrong from now on so that we don't have to keep going round and round on this. Nobody seems to like inferred wrongdoing without knowing specifically what was done wrong.

As you stated about yourself, perhaps other people also know their own minds better than you or anyone else and what you think about them may not be true at all. That's why asking for clarification is much better than insinuating something as serious as Phariseeism on MN and then refusing to give an example. I really don't believe Jesus would insinuate something that serious without making clear what He's referring to. In fact He gave specific examples of what he found ungodly about the Pharisees.

[Bootstrap]

I really don't believe Jesus would insinuate something that serious without making clear what He's referring to. In fact He gave specific examples of what he found ungodly about the Pharisees.

I disagree. Let's try this with Jesus:

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others."

Jesus does not tell us exactly which Pharisees are neglecting justice, mercy, and faith, or telling us exactly which instances he is thinking of. This is frequent with Jesus. I think Jesus flunks your standards regularly. The Pharisees were generally MUCH clearer about precisely who the sinners were, and they were quite certain that they were better than those sinners over there.

Then please call out the direct confrontation you feel is wrong from now on so that we don't have to keep going round and round on this. Nobody seems to like inferred wrongdoing without knowing specifically what was done wrong.

I'm not sure the Pharisees liked it either. But I have actually been fairly explicit about the kind of thing I am talking about in several places. I haven't seen a lot of response to it. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me, help me understand these Scriptures better.

For instance:

If you look at the Ephesians thread itself, it's pretty clear what I am advocating:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5756

I think it tells us to keep our eyes on Jesus, on the things that are right and good and true. But it's so easy to get completely carried away with the things that are evil. I think Ephesians 5 gives us good guidance here: "Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord," and "For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret."

Ephesians tells us "it is shameful even to speak", but sometimes it feels like we speak about that constantly, dramatically, repeating the same old points over and over again.

I don't think that's good. Because we don't want to let all that evil stuff become the center of our thought life. And we especially want to avoid becoming "experts in all that is evil" or developing a prurient interest in it. And we also want to avoid self-righteousness, polishing our own righteousness by always pointing to the sinfulness of others. In Ephesians 5, I think it is telling us:

1. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord.
2. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.

I think that's what Jesus did. He didn't join the Pharisees in competing to see who could denounce sinners the loudest. He walked in the light and showed them what light looks like. In love. By doing that, he exposed what is evil and called them into the light.

When we talk about specific kinds of sinners, how do we talk about them? How does that compare to the way that Jesus spoke about sinners? How does that compare to the way the Pharisees spoke to sinners? That's a good place to start. How would you answer these questions? Suppose you were to write a post encouraging us to do this the way Jesus did it, what would you write, and which examples would you draw from? To me, that's the kind of conversation I would expect from people who are trying to follow Jesus.

I suggest that anyone who is interested answer these questions for themselves, and apply these scriptures for themselves. Let him who has ears ...

[Soloist]

Luk 7:44  And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Luk 7:45  Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
Luk 7:46  My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

[Bootstrap]

Luk 7:44  And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Luk 7:45  Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
Luk 7:46  My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

So here are some things we learn from that. In this case, Jesus did tell Simon, explicitly, what he was doing wrong. So there are times to do that. In many other cases, Jesus is not that explicit.

And Jesus showed respect to the woman, honoring her. I think Simon was probably upset that Jesus was paying more attention to her than to him. As a (self-) righteous Pharisee of some (earthly) standing, and as the host in this household, he expected to be treated differently. Certainly his fellow Pharisees would have treated him better than that.

So ... are we ready to treat sinners like that in front of religious people? If we do, be prepared to be criticized. Just as Jesus was.