Modern Day Pharisees

[Bootstrap]

I tend to think Jesus was using the Pharisees as a convenient foil or example to make larger points. Just like he did with the parable of the Good Samaritan, which wasn't really about Samaritans but a universal lesson using an example that would be understood by his audience. When speaking of Pharisees he is really saying don't be LIKE the Pharisees who do this bad or incorrect thing....

Sure. Some Pharisees are even positive examples. Being a Pharisee was not the sin Jesus was talking about.

Nicodemus was a Pharisee. He was also a seeker of truth and a secret disciple of Jesus. (John 3:1-21, John 7:45-52, John 19:39).

Gamaliel was a respected Pharisee and teacher of the law. When the apostles are on trial, he advised the Sanhedrin not to take hasty action against them. (Acts 5:34-39).

[Bootstrap]

I don't understand the question.

I don't think Jesus is obscure or nameless. I don't think the Pharisees are obscure or nameless. I think the scriptures and summaries I provided are very concrete, and they give pretty clear hints that could be used to apply these teachings.

If I am missing the point, please tell me what point Jesus is making about the Pharisees that I have missed. And perhaps suggest ways we can apply it today.

What I’m saying is talk about how it impacts you rather then a generic form of “Christian” that is unnamed and apparently not about Anabaptists.

For me, these are checklists I turn to from time to time, much like the Sermon on the Mount. They are central teachings of Jesus. When I want to know what it looks like to be good and holy, these are teachings I turn to again and again. They help remind me that looking religious on the outside is not the goal. They tell me what seeking first the Kingdom of God looks like.

I've mentioned this several times, but there is a very concrete group I was addressing here: people who post on MennoNet, which includes Mennonites but also others. As Christians, how do we express our concern for sinners with the same compassion as Jesus? As Christians, how do we reach out for them? As Christians, how do we speak about sinners the way Jesus did? How is that different from the way he talked about Pharisees? What does that tell us?

[Soloist]

I've mentioned this several times, but there is a very concrete group I was addressing here: people who post on MennoNet, which includes Mennonites but also others. As Christians, how do we express our concern for sinners with the same compassion as Jesus? As Christians, how do we reach out for them? As Christians, how do we speak about sinners the way Jesus did? How is that different from the way he talked about Pharisees? What does that tell us?

Seems then that this isn’t a generalization but targeted at people here on Mennonet. Is that a fair understanding of the bolded? It also seems that you are including yourself in this list but you don’t actually think you have any problem with it.

[Bootstrap]

Seems then that this isn’t a generalization but targeted at people here on Mennonet. Is that a fair understanding of the bolded?

Seems like you want to avoid actually discussing the scriptures. Is that a fair understanding? I think these are the right questions:

As Christians, how do we express our concern for sinners with the same compassion as Jesus? As Christians, how do we reach out for them? As Christians, how do we speak about sinners the way Jesus did? How is that different from the way he talked about Pharisees? What does that tell us?

You call that "targeting"? And don't bother responding to the questions?

Have you nothing to say about all the Scriptures that have been posted in this thread? Is it wrong to suggest that Scripture should guide us when we post on MennoNet? And yes, certainly including me (I have made that point several times now).

Perhaps your next post could take some of these Scriptures and address them directly, saying how you think we should apply them?

[Josh]

Our perspective is that being more worldly is being less Christ-like.

I agree. I find those terms very helpful for thinking clearly.

But Jesus also did not hide out in a monastery, enclave, or temple like many religious people then and now, writing, praying, engaging in philosophical or theological pursuits. He spent his time out in the world, constantly engaging with worldly people from every walk of life.

I’m pretty sure we have no monastics here on MN.

[Soloist]

Seems like you want to avoid actually discussing the scriptures. Is that a fair understanding? I think these are the right questions:

I did reference Scripture more then once in this thread. While I have nothing directly to contribute as I don’t disagree with what the Scripture you quoted said, I see more value in modern applications then quotation with no application.

You call that "targeting"? And don't bother responding to the questions?

Have you nothing to say about all the Scriptures that have been posted in this thread? Is it wrong to suggest that Scripture should guide us when we post on MennoNet? And yes, certainly including me (I have made that point several times now).

Perhaps your next post could take some of these Scriptures and address them directly, saying how you think we should apply them?

I think I offended you, and for that I’m sorry.
I have little to add as I feel this has already been dissected. perhaps I can add some answers to your questions when I have more time. And perhaps then you can answer mine.

Edit:
We generally all agree on what the verses mean. I think that the biggest issue for all of us is that when we read these verses, we naturally think of them applying to somebody else.

[GaryK]

Seems like you want to avoid actually discussing the scriptures. Is that a fair understanding? I think these are the right questions:

I did reference Scripture more then once in this thread. While I have nothing directly to contribute as I don’t disagree with what the Scripture you quoted said, I see more value in modern applications then quotation with no application.

Somehow it's okay for some people to make insinuations about modern day Phariseeism on MN but when asked to say more about the insinuations, all of a sudden, we are only supposed to discuss scripture. The scriptures also have much to say about false accusations...

Some Christians are Christ-like. Others are more like Pharisees. That sin is real, it continues today, and there's a very good reason that Jesus spent so much of his time and energy preaching against it. People who call themselves Christians today have a wide variety of agendas, and not all of them are the same agenda Jesus had. Jesus gave us the ministry of reconciliation, through grace.

And "from the abundance of the mouth the heart speaks". Listen to people speak, and you can tell how much they care about the people they are talking about, how much they value what is good in those people, how much they want you to know that God loves them deeply, no matter what they have done. And you can also hear how much they believe that we also are saved only by God's love and grace, not by anything we can do.

People who care about the souls of men and women ask how we can reach them. In most of the threads about LGBTQ, for instance, we aren't spending much time and energy asking how we can explain our own world view to others, or how to love people we disagree with, bringing them into the Kingdom. Do we really care about their souls? If we do, how are we showing that to them?

And sometimes, "share the truth" can mean "say what I think, loudly, with very strong emotional language that tells you exactly what I want you to feel about those other people". That's not what the Bible means by "the truth".

Amen. But that twisting of Scriptures includes those who use Scripture to justify Phariseeism, those who use Scripture to justify politically-inspired enmities, those who want to deny that hatred or self-righteousness are even real issues that Christians should care about. The time is indeed short. We do need to contend for the faith. I think this passage tells us how.

Of course not. But "from the abundance of the mouth the heart speaks". And what we see here may be an indication of what is abundant in people's mouths. How can we talk more about those other things in our lives more? How can we be more about the light than the darkness?

You have never seen Phariseeism on MN? Not even once? I'm surprised.

"Listen to people speak, and you can tell how much they care about the people they are talking about..."

[Bootstrap]

Seems like you want to avoid actually discussing the scriptures. Is that a fair understanding? I think these are the right questions:

I did reference Scripture more then once in this thread. While I have nothing directly to contribute as I don’t disagree with what the Scripture you quoted said, I see more value in modern applications then quotation with no application.

Somehow it's okay for some people to make insinuations about modern day Phariseeism on MN but when asked to say more about the insinuations, all of a sudden, we are only supposed to discuss scripture. The scriptures also have much to say about false accusations...

Actually, I have avoided making specific accusations. Jesus often did the same. Sometimes he would explain in more depth to his disciples. I think you have been asking me to make specific accusations, which would obviously turn it into a fight and make people take offense.

Jesus sometimes did that, but often did not. He often told parables, focusing on being very clear abut what is good and what is bad. I don't think Jesus would do what you want me to do. "Let him who has ears to listen ..." that's a perfectly good way to approach Scripture. It's not my job to apply this to other people's lives. I am trying to follow the example of Jesus as best I know how.

I would rather focus on what I think is good and what I think is bad according to Jesus in Scripture. And yes, I think there are posts that flunk this test. i am explicitly trying to avoid saying "this is the bad person" or "this is the bad group".

Which is why I am resisting the direction you are pulling me in. I really don't want to put individuals or groups on trial. I want to witness to what Jesus said about what is good and what is bad. And I would like to keep the focus on that.

[Bootstrap]

You have never seen Phariseeism on MN? Not even once? I'm surprised.

"Listen to people speak, and you can tell how much they care about the people they are talking about..."

Yes, that's pretty central to what I am saying.

And that's a reason that I am not denouncing specific people or making specific accusations. I am not talking about specific people or groups much at all. I am focusing on what Jesus said good looks like and what he said about the Pharisees. And over and over again, you ask me to make specific accusations, which is precisely what I am avoiding.

Do you agree with my summaries? Are there parts that you disagree with? I put a bunch of time into creating these summaries precisely because you were asking what I mean by modern Phariseeism. I wanted to stick very closely to the text of the Bible, focusing on precisely what Jesus said about the Pharisees.

Do you agree or disagree with my summaries?

Are any of these concerns not an issue with modern Christians today? Which ones and why? Or are you claiming that they are not a problem in your particular branch of Christianity? What exactly are you trying to say? Please don't make me read tea leaves, if you are insinuating something, please say it outright. If you are not, please say that.

[GaryK]

I did reference Scripture more then once in this thread. While I have nothing directly to contribute as I don’t disagree with what the Scripture you quoted said, I see more value in modern applications then quotation with no application.

Somehow it's okay for some people to make insinuations about modern day Phariseeism on MN but when asked to say more about the insinuations, all of a sudden, we are only supposed to discuss scripture. The scriptures also have much to say about false accusations...

Actually, I have avoided making specific accusations. Jesus often did the same. Sometimes he would explain in more depth to his disciples. I think you have been asking me to make specific accusations, which would obviously turn it into a fight and make people take offense.

As you will note, I didn't accuse you of making specific accusations. I said "insinuations about modern day Phariseeism". And no, I think what you call "people taking offense" would simply be people rejecting your insinuation of Phariseeism. There's a difference.

Jesus sometimes did that, but often did not. He often told parables, focusing on being very clear abut what is good and what is bad. I don't think Jesus would do what you want me to do. "Let him who has ears to listen ..." that's a perfectly good way to approach Scripture. It's not my job to apply this to other people's lives. I am trying to follow the example of Jesus as best I know how.

I don't think Jesus would make insinuations of Phariseeism against other Christians. I think He would simply point out what's wrong with what someone said.

I would rather focus on what I think is good and what I think is bad according to Jesus in Scripture. And yes, I think there are posts that flunk this test. i am explicitly trying to avoid saying "this is the bad person" or "this is the bad group".

Except that is exactly what you are insinuating about "the bad person" or "the bad group" on MN in all the examples I highlighted in your previous posts. I think everyone is aware that you have specific people and groups on MN in mind.

Which is why I am resisting the direction you are pulling me in. I really don't want to put individuals or groups on trial. I want to witness to what Jesus said about what is good and what is bad. And I would like to keep the focus on that.

I'm not pulling you in any direction you didn't set yourself.