Modern Day Pharisees

[Bootstrap]

This just proves the point though, we can say something is sin, quote verses and then have someone else argue it doesn’t mean that and quote verses. I’m sure there is a website out there arguing that homosexuals should be allowed to marry as God didn’t intend them to be unhappy. After all they say, He made us this way.
Same argument used for divorce and remarriage basically and the same argument used for transgenderism.
The broad church on the broad road with social changes.
So which one is the pharisee?

The Pharisee is the one who is doing the things that Jesus accuses the Pharisees of doing. Those are sins too. Even though the Pharisees argued that it was their righteousness, the things that set them apart. There is a broad church on a broad road that is trying to say the teachings of the Bible are irrelevant. There is also a broad church on a broad road that is acting like the Pharisees were right and Jesus was wrong. We need to avoid both ditches.

We do need to be holy. And Christ-like. As we relate to sin in others, we should follow the example of Jesus Christ.

I think it would be helpful if people would engage more directly with the many scriptures that have been cited in this thread. It's a central issue in the teachings and example of Jesus. And perhaps this is not the best thread to focus on justifying ourselves?

[Soloist]

There is also a broad church on a broad road that is acting like the Pharisees were right and Jesus was wrong. We need to avoid both ditches.

Please expand on this. What do you see this church doing?

[Bootstrap]

There is also a broad church on a broad road that is acting like the Pharisees were right and Jesus was wrong. We need to avoid both ditches.

Please expand on this. What do you see this church doing?

You could pick any of the scriptures in the list I have given so far and find some Christians behaving like the Pharisees. Let me pick another example I haven't mentioned - love of money.

Consider Luke 16:14, where Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for their love of money: "The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him." Here, the phrase "lovers of money" emphasizes the Pharisees' strong attachment to wealth and their preoccupation with material gain.

I think that's related to Luke 20:46-47, Jesus warns his disciples and the crowd about the Pharisees, saying, While all the people were listening, Jesus said to his disciples, “Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely."

Surely you have seen Christian leaders who act like that?

Pick some of the lists I quoted earlier. Do you think any of these are no longer relevant to Christians today? Or that any of these are rare in the modern church? Do you think those sins have now ceased? Or that they are no longer sinful?

[Soloist]

There is a broad church on a broad road that is trying to say the teachings of the Bible are irrelevant. There is also a broad church on a broad road that is acting like the Pharisees were right and Jesus was wrong. We need to avoid both ditches.

Both of those churches are disobeying Jesus and I don’t see why you are breaking them into two groups.

I’d like to hear you speak on how any of this actually impacts us because so far you speak in generalized terms that don’t seem to be an issue in the Anabaptist churches.

[Sudsy]

Pick some of the lists I quoted earlier. Do you think any of these are no longer relevant to Christians today? Or that any of these are rare in the modern church? Do you think those sins have now ceased? Or that they are no longer sinful ?

Here's one good way to understand what Jesus had to say about Pharisees: Print out Matthew 23. Make a list of the major things he is criticizing them for in that chapter.

Here are some of the criticisms Jesus made against the Pharisees, along with corresponding scripture references. I think every one of these is a danger to Christians today. I agree.

• Hypocrisy: Jesus criticized the Pharisees for their hypocritical behavior and outward show of righteousness while lacking genuine faith and obedience.
  Matthew 23:3, 5-7 - "So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach... Everything they do is done for people to see... They love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called 'Rabbi' by others."
• Neglecting the weightier matters of the law: Jesus criticized the Pharisees for focusing on minor details of the law while neglecting the more important aspects of justice, mercy, and faithfulness.
  Matthew 23:23 - "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."
• Love of praise and recognition: Jesus criticized the Pharisees for seeking praise and recognition from people rather than seeking the approval of God.
  Matthew 23:5-7 - "Everything they do is done for people to see... They love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called 'Rabbi' by others."
• Legalism and burdensome regulations: Jesus criticized the Pharisees for burdening people with numerous rules and regulations that went beyond the intent of the law.
  Matthew 23:4 - "They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."
• Neglecting the heart and inner transformation: Jesus criticized the Pharisees for focusing on external appearances and rituals while neglecting the inward transformation of the heart.
  Matthew 23:25-26 - "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean."
• Outward righteousness but inward wickedness: Jesus criticized the Pharisees for appearing righteous on the outside but having hearts filled with hypocrisy and wickedness.
  Matthew 23:27-28 - "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."
• Persecuting prophets and righteous people: Jesus criticized the Pharisees for their history of persecuting and killing prophets and righteous individuals sent by God.
  Matthew 23:29-31 - "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets."
• Relying on their lineage rather than genuine repentance: John the Baptist rebuked the Pharisees who came to him for baptism, warning them not to rely solely on their lineage as descendants of Abraham. He emphasized the need for genuine repentance and a transformed heart.
  Matthew 3:9 - "And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham."

[Bootstrap]

There is a broad church on a broad road that is trying to say the teachings of the Bible are irrelevant. There is also a broad church on a broad road that is acting like the Pharisees were right and Jesus was wrong. We need to avoid both ditches.

Both of those churches are disobeying Jesus and I don’t see why you are breaking them into two groups.

I’d like to hear you speak on how any of this actually impacts us because so far you speak in generalized terms that don’t seem to be an issue in the Anabaptist churches.

I was posting this to MennoNet, not to "the Anabaptist churches". It started with this post:

viewtopic.php?p=193516#p193516

Here's the first part of it:

I think Philippians tells us where our minds need to dwell:

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

I think it tells us to keep our eyes on Jesus, on the things that are right and good and true. But it's so easy to get completely carried away with the things that are evil. I think Ephesians 5 gives us good guidance here: "Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord," and "For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret."

Ephesians tells us "it is shameful even to speak", but sometimes it feels like we speak about that constantly, dramatically, repeating the same old points over and over again.

I don't think that's good. Because we don't want to let all that evil stuff become the center of our thought life. And we especially want to avoid becoming "experts in all that is evil" or developing a prurient interest in it. And we also want to avoid self-righteousness, polishing our own righteousness by always pointing to the sinfulness of others. In Ephesians 5, I think it is telling us:

1. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord.
2. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.

I think that's what Jesus did. He didn't join the Pharisees in competing to see who could denounce sinners the loudest. He walked in the light and showed them what light looks like. In love. By doing that, he exposed what is evil and called them into the light.

To me, the things I am saying in this thread and the original thread are very much ideals that most Anabaptists and Mennonites would agree on in theory, at least. In practice, I think Christians of all stripes probably need to wrestle with this issue regularly - how do we, as members of the Kingdom of God, relate to the people in the sinful world around us? How did Jesus do that? How was that different from what he denounced in Pharisees?

And I suspect that's more beneficial to us than focusing on the sins of people who probably aren't even here in the conversation. Logs and specks and all that. I know that I have to wrestle with this. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm not alone.

[Heirbyadoption]

There is a broad church on a broad road that is trying to say the teachings of the Bible are irrelevant. There is also a broad church on a broad road that is acting like the Pharisees were right and Jesus was wrong. We need to avoid both ditches.

Both of those churches are disobeying Jesus and I don’t see why you are breaking them into two groups.

I’d like to hear you speak on how any of this actually impacts us because so far you speak in generalized terms that don’t seem to be an issue in the Anabaptist churches.

I was posting this to MennoNet, not to "the Anabaptist churches".

I get what you're saying, but Soloist does raise a pertinent distinction about addressing these things in an Anabaptist context, perhaps... After all, and in spite of the distinct shift away from having mostly conservative Anabaptists as the primary commentors here on MN, this IS still MENNOnet, Mennos are Anabaptists, and "MENNOnet" is the direct descendant of "MENNO-Discuss", an Anabaptist discussion forum. Then again, the principles in question can indeed be applied generally... I would contend that Soloist is also perhaps slightly in error that such things are not an issue among Anabaptist churches, but the discussion of that particular context is in your hands, I suppose.

Having said all that, one of these days we probably ought to have a forum on adjusting the primary title of Mennonet for the sake of accuracy

[Josh]

Conservative Anabaptists are amongst the worst about calling anyone more plain than they are Pharisees. I regularly hear the Amish described this way.

They are also guilty of looking down on anyone less plain and resting in their own works and righteousness: “I am glad I am not like that publican over there whose wife doesn’t wear a cape dress, as I am also glad I am not like that Pharisee with his horse and buggy.”

[Soloist]

No one is ever in the wrong spot, we aren’t too conservative like those legalists, and we aren’t liberals like them.

[Bootstrap]

I was posting this to MennoNet, not to "the Anabaptist churches".

I get what you're saying, but Soloist does raise a pertinent distinction about addressing these things in an Anabaptist context, perhaps... After all, and in spite of the distinct shift away from having mostly conservative Anabaptists as the primary commentors here on MN, this IS still MENNOnet, Mennos are Anabaptists, and "MENNOnet" is the direct descendant of "MENNO-Discuss", an Anabaptist discussion forum. Then again, the principles in question can indeed be applied generally...

People like me, Robert, and Szdfan also posted regularly on MennoDiscuss. Back then, most people identified as some kind of Mennonite or Anabaptist. And FWIW, most Mennonites, across the spectrum, consider themselves Anabaptist. There's a lot of shared history and theology. And some really significant differences. Back then, I think we did a pretty good job of talking through these different perspectives in some depth, respectfully.

I would contend that Soloist is also perhaps slightly in error that such things are not an issue among Anabaptist churches, but the discussion of that particular context is in your hands, I suppose.

Oh, feel free to discuss that. Obviously, these things become most real in the contexts we live in. I think all churches struggle with this - how can we live out holiness, love, and compassion, as Jesus did, without compromise? It's not easy.

I actually think that Two Kingdom theology and traditional Mennonite perspectives have some useful answers here.