ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 11:55 am
Why did Jesus use such strong language in addressing the sins of the Pharisees? Was it really because of their hypocrisy and because they were religious?
What does Matthew 23 tell us about why? Can you list the reasons Jesus gave?
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 11:55 amIs it reasonable to compare the Pharisees to Christian people today who are trying to follow Jesus, and compare the sinners whom Jesus forgave to, for instance, people who are actively advocating murder and sinful degenerate lifestyles?
I think it's completely reasonable to compare the Pharisees to Christians who are trying to follow Jesus. After all, the Pharisees were genuinely trying to follow God. Their earnestness and zeal ("not according to knowledge") is apparent in the New Testament. These are the sins that Jesus was most outspoken about. If earnestly trying to do what is right is good enough, then the Pharisees should have been scot free.
So if we believe that the things Jesus said are still relevant today, I think that includes this.
I'm not so sure that most of the Pharisees were genuinely trying to follow God. They had zeal, yes, but I think that the kind of people Jesus describes when He denounces the Pharisees are a people who are genuinely selfish, not a people who genuinely trying to follow God.
Could a person who genuinely wanted to follow God have met with Jesus, listened to His teachings, and then proceeded to condemn and crucify Him? If a person genuinely wants to follow God, will God allow him to stumble blindly on in darkness?
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 1:13 pmI think it's completely reasonable to compare the Pharisees to Christians who are trying to follow Jesus. After all, the Pharisees were genuinely trying to follow God. Their earnestness and zeal ("not according to knowledge") is apparent in the New Testament. These are the sins that Jesus was most outspoken about. If earnestly trying to do what is right is good enough, then the Pharisees should have been scot free.
So if we believe that the things Jesus said are still relevant today, I think that includes this.
I'm not so sure that most of the Pharisees were genuinely trying to follow God. They had zeal, yes, but I think that the kind of people Jesus describes when He denounces the Pharisees are a people who are genuinely selfish, not a people who genuinely trying to follow God.
Could a person who genuinely wanted to follow God have met with Jesus, listened to His teachings, and then proceeded to condemn and crucify Him? If a person genuinely wants to follow God, will God allow him to stumble blindly on in darkness?
Okay.
But then I would have to say that I'm not so sure most modern Christians are genuinely trying to follow God either. They are chasing after other things. And some of them are chasing after the same things the Pharisees were then. Make a list of the things Jesus mentions in Matthew 23. As far as I can tell, every single one of them is still relevant today among Christians. Including some zealous, conservative Christians.
Both modern and ancient Pharisees say quite clearly that they are trying to follow God, and I think they generally believe it. But if the things they focus on and chase after are not the same things Jesus said and taught, they could be wrong.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Wed May 24, 2023 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 1:13 pmI think it's completely reasonable to compare the Pharisees to Christians who are trying to follow Jesus. After all, the Pharisees were genuinely trying to follow God. Their earnestness and zeal ("not according to knowledge") is apparent in the New Testament. These are the sins that Jesus was most outspoken about. If earnestly trying to do what is right is good enough, then the Pharisees should have been scot free.
So if we believe that the things Jesus said are still relevant today, I think that includes this.
I'm not so sure that most of the Pharisees were genuinely trying to follow God. They had zeal, yes, but I think that the kind of people Jesus describes when He denounces the Pharisees are a people who are genuinely selfish, not a people who genuinely trying to follow God.
Could a person who genuinely wanted to follow God have met with Jesus, listened to His teachings, and then proceeded to condemn and crucify Him? If a person genuinely wants to follow God, will God allow him to stumble blindly on in darkness?
Okay.
But then I would have to say that I'm not so sure most modern Christians are genuinely trying to follow God either. They are chasing after other things. And some of them are chasing after the same things the Pharisees were then. Make a list of the things Jesus mentions in Matthew 23. As far as I can tell, every single one of them is still relevant today among Christians.
Both modern and ancient Pharisees say quite clearly that they are trying to follow God, and I think they generally believe it. But if the things they focus on and chase after are not the same things Jesus said and taught, they could be wrong.
GaryK wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 8:51 am
Who gets to decide what Phariseeism is in our day? I can assure you that there are "Christians" today who would say that you are a modern day Pharisee because of what you have said on MN before about your disagreements with the Gay agenda/ideology.
In fact, some people clearly do. So I think we all have to go back to the Bible and really seek to understand why Jesus spoke out against the Pharisees, why it was so important to him, and what that means for how we should live our lives.
The Holy Spirit will convict us of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Especially if we read it together, seeking God's will, listening to what the Spirit is saying to us in our local fellowships. But a LOT of modern Christians don't even ask themselves about the things Jesus talked about with the Pharisees. They don't really consider whether they might be an issue. They focus mostly on the sins of others.
GaryK wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 8:51 amYou seem to be implying in this post that you have seen Phariseeism on MN in the discussions on LGBTQ issues. What I have seen is not what I would consider Phariseeism, but rather, strong disagreement with ideologies that are clearly anti-God.
You have never seen Phariseeism on MN? Not even once? I'm surprised.
GaryK wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 8:51 am
Who gets to decide what Phariseeism is in our day? I can assure you that there are "Christians" today who would say that you are a modern day Pharisee because of what you have said on MN before about your disagreements with the Gay agenda/ideology.
In fact, some people clearly do. So I think we all have to go back to the Bible and really seek to understand why Jesus spoke out against the Pharisees, why it was so important to him, and what that means for how we should live our lives.
The Holy Spirit will convict us of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Especially if we read it together, seeking God's will, listening to what the Spirit is saying to us in our local fellowships. But a LOT of modern Christians don't even ask themselves about the things Jesus talked about with the Pharisees. They don't really consider whether they might be an issue. They focus mostly on the sins of others.
GaryK wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 8:51 amYou seem to be implying in this post that you have seen Phariseeism on MN in the discussions on LGBTQ issues. What I have seen is not what I would consider Phariseeism, but rather, strong disagreement with ideologies that are clearly anti-God.
You have never seen Phariseeism on MN? Not even once? I'm surprised.
I don't recall ever thinking that what someone said on MN reeked of Phariseeism.
The Pharisees, generally speaking, were not followers of Jesus so I'm wondering why comparing other Christians to Pharisees is a good thing. If some Christians call you a Pharisee and you don't feel in your heart that you are, why should you or anyone else conclude that other Christians are guilty of Phariseeism when they don't feel in their heart that they are?
Szdfan wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 6:22 pm
Of course there were no Christians at the time of Jesus and Jesus himself was a Jew.
Which is why I said followers of Jesus. Many of the Jews followed Jesus before He died and before His followers were called Christians.
I figured you were doing that, but I'm not sure the text is making the distinction you are. If the Pharisees have absolutely nothing to do with the followers of Jesus, why include them in the text? If they're irrelevant, than why are they there?
I think that on one level, the Pharisees serve as a negative example or a warning of what zealous faith without grace looks like. The Scriptures aren't just the story of the faithfulness of God's people, they are also the story where God's people go wrong.
The Pharisees believed that Israel was in a special convenant relationship with God and in following the Law. Yet in their zeal, they missed the work that God was doing right in front of them. I think this is very relevant to faith today.