Socialism Vs. Capitalism

[Robert]

I am not saying that Socialism-in-practice isn't authoritarian or oppressive, rather that it's a logical countervail to Individualism. That is to say, if you don't want Socialism don't promote Individualism. As long as Individualism continues to grow and spread, so too will Socialism.

Here in the US, all of the following are forms of socialism:

Medicare and Medicaid
Social Security
Public airports and the FAA air traffic control system
Subsidized crop insurance and the entire system of farm subsidies from sugar to milk.
GPS and weather satellites
FEMA and disaster relief
Federal flood insurance
The US Army Corps of Engineers system of dikes, levees, and locks on the Mississippi, Ohio, Great Lakes, etc.
The interstate highway system
Public schools and universities
The Federal Reserve
Ethanol
The entire system of dams and irrigation in the entire west from the Colorado River to the Columbia.
The Tennessee Valley Authority
The CDC and NIH
etc. etc.

Just because something is by law mandated for the populous, it does not mean it is socialism. If the laws were passed through a representative process, then it is the voice of the people.

I actually disagree with the need of about half your list, but do concede some on your list is needed and was passed by the voice of the people.

[JimFoxvog]

Just because something is by law mandated for the populous, it does not mean it is socialism. If the laws were passed through a representative process, then it is the voice of the people.

Aren't socialist programs often the voice of the people?

[Ken]

I am not saying that Socialism-in-practice isn't authoritarian or oppressive, rather that it's a logical countervail to Individualism. That is to say, if you don't want Socialism don't promote Individualism. As long as Individualism continues to grow and spread, so too will Socialism.

Here in the US, all of the following are forms of socialism:

Medicare and Medicaid
Social Security
Public airports and the FAA air traffic control system
Subsidized crop insurance and the entire system of farm subsidies from sugar to milk.
GPS and weather satellites
FEMA and disaster relief
Federal flood insurance
The US Army Corps of Engineers system of dikes, levees, and locks on the Mississippi, Ohio, Great Lakes, etc.
The interstate highway system
Public schools and universities
The Federal Reserve
Ethanol
The entire system of dams and irrigation in the entire west from the Colorado River to the Columbia.
The Tennessee Valley Authority
The CDC and NIH
etc. etc.

Just because something is by law mandated for the populous, it does not mean it is socialism. If the laws were passed through a representative process, then it is the voice of the people.

I actually disagree with the need of about half your list, but do concede some on your list is needed and was passed by the voice of the people.

I'm defining all of those things as "socialism" because they are public or government-run programs that replace private sector alternatives.

Medicare and Medicaid are socialized forms of health insurance
Social Security is socialized retirement pensions
Public airports and air traffic control could be managed by the airlines. Train stations used to be privately built and operated by the railroads, for example.
GPS could be built and operated by private companies
Dikes, levees, locks, and highways could be private and were in centuries past
Schools and universities could be private
Dams and water systems could be private and are in some countries.

None of them were voted on directly by "the people" but were approved by the legislature. As were every single social welfare program commonly labeled as "socialist" in the Nordic countries

Every modern country has massive amounts of government programs that can frankly be labeled "socialist".

What it ultimately comes down to in my mind is that market failure is a very real thing and not every problem is best addressed by the free market. Some problems are more appropriately dealt with publicly.

Take Medicare for example. It is insurance for the elderly who are largely not working and would be largely uninsurable in the private marketplace. Private health insurance for the elderly would be unaffordable for all but the most wealthy Americans. So we either let our elderly die or come up with a public system of health insurance for that sector of the population for whom private insurance fails. So we have a socialized system that people pay into their entire working lives and then it is there for them when they retire.

There are other areas of the economy where the market works better. Agriculture, for example. Collectivized agriculture has been a failure everywhere it has been tried. The economy works better with private farmers rather than vast government farms. But we do still sometimes have market failures in agriculture where markets or crops crash through no basic fault of the farmers. So we have farm programs that provide some level of socialized insurance and public support for agriculture.

Education is another area where privatization would likely fail. Vast millions of American children would receive very little or no education were it not for compulsory public education. Would that be a problem? Yes if you want a modern productive economy and not see every single American industry move overseas to find an educated workforce. And our society would not be well served to have vast hordes of feral uneducated youth roaming the streets. So we pay our property taxes and make sure that all children are educated. We benefit.

You can't really blanket assert that socialism is bad and capitalism is good. In a modern economy you have to go sector by sector and decide exactly what the appropriate level of government involvement really is. And the answer will be different in every sector of the economy.

[Josh]

GPS is run by the military and was originally for the targeting of nuclear missiles.

A good case study in “socialism”.

[RZehr]

And our society would not be well served to have vast hordes of feral uneducated youth roaming the streets.

With what some schools sound like, I wonder if this is happening even with free schooling for children.

[Ken]

And our society would not be well served to have vast hordes of feral uneducated youth roaming the streets.

With what some schools sound like, I wonder if this is happening even with free schooling for children.

On average, kids today are better behaved than any generation going back to at least the 1960s. In terms of violence, crime, drug abuse, teen pregnancy, drop-out rates, etc. Look up any trend you want over the past 40 years. For example:



I currently teach in a big public HS that is very diverse and poor. Demographically it is about 55% low SES (poor) and the ethnic makeup is about 40% Hispanic, 10% Asian, 5% Black, and 45% White of which at least 10% are recent immigrants from Russia, Ukraine, Syria, etc. People would consider it on paper to be a "rough" school. Yet I have not seen one fight this year and the kids are generally better behaved than my all white middle class HS was in suburban Oregon back in the 1980s. The worst that generally happens is that kids vape in the bathrooms and set off the fire alarms.

There are plenty of problems to be sure, but they are mostly related to keeping kids coming to class and on track when so many easily drift away and jeopardize their futures by dropping out or failing. Especially when their home lives are a mess.

[Robert]

Just because something is by law mandated for the populous, it does not mean it is socialism. If the laws were passed through a representative process, then it is the voice of the people.

Aren't socialist programs often the voice of the people?

They are supposed to be, but seldom are.

[Robert]

Medicare and Medicaid are socialized forms of health insurance

One can get private insurance.

Social Security is socialized retirement pensions

One can opt out.

Public airports and air traffic control could be managed by the airlines. Train stations used to be privately built and operated by the railroads, for example.

One can drive or take a boat.

GPS could be built and operated by private companies

One can use a map.

Dikes, levees, locks, and highways could be private and were in centuries past

One can drive on state and county roads.

There are options and all these things were enacted by laws passed by a representative legislature. A new Congress could pass different laws and remove them.

Again, just because a society chooses to work corporately, does not mean it is socialism. It means it CHOOSES to do so. It can choose differently.

[Robert]

On average, kids today are better behaved than any generation going back to at least the 1960s. In terms of violence, crime, drug abuse, teen pregnancy, drop-out rates, etc. Look up any trend you want over the past 40 years. For example:

I have a feeling they have excluded gang violence from that chart. I thin an inner city teacher would have a different experience.

[temporal1]

Robert:
I have a feeling they have excluded gang violence from that chart. I (think) an inner city teacher would have a different experience.

yes.
another factor is deliberately changing the parameters for statistics, with the intent of “making numbers look good on paper,”
rather than improving or fixing any problem. it’s impossible to conclude anything when rules are changed, it’s comparing apples to oranges, without being honest about it.

important questions google searches care-not about: what is included? what is excluded? (since when? why?)