What if there are not enough sword-bearers?

[Ernie]

Romans 13 says that governments are appointed to carry swords.

What if a society cannot hire sufficient sword bearers? Is this a new problem in human history?

https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-depart ... d=98363458

[Sliceitup]

I suspect (and hope) that policing is going to go through a shift of sorts in terms of what the job entails, and how it is performed. I think (and hope) that it will also result in a slightly different type of person who is interested in the job. But as that change occurs I think it will be difficult to find enough people to take that job.

In regards to what happens when not enough of people are willing to take up the sword, this was always my problem with that type of thinking. We allow ourselves to be “clean” by depending on others to do the “dirty” work. It doesn’t feel Christ-like.

[Robert]

I see this as a by product of the organizational life cycle.

[GaryK]

Romans 13 says that governments are appointed to carry swords.

What if a society cannot hire sufficient sword bearers? Is this a new problem in human history?

https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-depart ... d=98363458

I wish it would be true that the reason there are not enough sword-bearers is because more and more people are leaving the kingdom of the world and entering the Kingdom of Light. But it seems obvious that is not the case, so I'm not sure what this means for the future of societies.

[Soloist]

In regards to what happens when not enough of people are willing to take up the sword, this was always my problem with that type of thinking. We allow ourselves to be “clean” by depending on others to do the “dirty” work. It doesn’t feel Christ-like.

So is it more Christ like to kill?
What Christian freedom have we gained from any US military action? Do we really depend on those who kill with the sword? I would say no.

[GaryK]

I suspect (and hope) that policing is going to go through a shift of sorts in terms of what the job entails, and how it is performed. I think (and hope) that it will also result in a slightly different type of person who is interested in the job. But as that change occurs I think it will be difficult to find enough people to take that job.

In regards to what happens when not enough of people are willing to take up the sword, this was always my problem with that type of thinking. We allow ourselves to be “clean” by depending on others to do the “dirty” work. It doesn’t feel Christ-like.

What is the alternative for those who hold to Jesus' teaching on non-violence?

[Sliceitup]

I suspect (and hope) that policing is going to go through a shift of sorts in terms of what the job entails, and how it is performed. I think (and hope) that it will also result in a slightly different type of person who is interested in the job. But as that change occurs I think it will be difficult to find enough people to take that job.

In regards to what happens when not enough of people are willing to take up the sword, this was always my problem with that type of thinking. We allow ourselves to be “clean” by depending on others to do the “dirty” work. It doesn’t feel Christ-like.

What is the alternative for those who hold to Jesus' teaching on non-violence?

The change that I hope is coming may make it easier for anabaptists to participate in the vocation of policing.

The background to my theory: the role of authority figures in almost any type of position is constantly changing. It may be a slow change, but change nonetheless. For a big example you can witness the change from monarchies to democracies. Most parts of the earth came to the realization that they preferred a government/authority that was a bit more accountable to those who it rules.

This change occurs even in places where you wouldn’t think of it even being an authority type structure. As an example: nursing homes. My daughter recently started working at a local nursing home. I went with her on a tour of the facility and the staff member said that there was a time when nursing homes had a type of order that dictated every able body must be out of bed at a specific time. She said that they have changed this to allow people to get up when they want. Basically they have given the residents more autonomy. They are there to assist them in their sunset years, not to rule over them.

Another change is the way many parents are turning to what is usually called “gentle parenting.” It’s a method that relies less on the large power differential and is more collaborative. I started doing many of these things without making a conscious decision to do so, and I think it yields far better results, and enables a much healthier relationship between parents and children.

Currently policing gives enormous amounts of power to people with relatively little training. And at times it has specifically excluded those with higher IQs. It’s also a physical job. All of this combined means that it often attracts people who are power hungry, with fewer cognitive thinking abilities making them more likely to act rashly, and it’s enabled them to domineer the population. Obviously not all of them do this, but the ability is there for them to do this in a multitude of subtle ways. And it happens.

Contrast that with people who are prosecutors. They need much more education, basically requiring them to have the ability to think long term. They also have a lot of power, but their power is usually more likely to be documented, and it’s in the court system where checks and balances exist, much more than they do when a police officer is hauling you in for peaceful protesting and he decides to make the cuffs extremely tight.

I foresee a future where policing is much less aggressive, where it is more solutions focused. Like parenting, it may become more collaborative and less reliant on the power differential. I think it will require more education, and the power hungry people will be easier to weed out.

Now what about needing to take up the sword? There will obviously still be times when they need to use violence, as in the case of mass shooters. But for years anabaptists we’re perfectly fine with teachers using corporal punishment in their role as authority figures, and I can see a time when they are also ok with the sword required in policing, if the overall culture of policing is different.

[GaryK]

I suspect (and hope) that policing is going to go through a shift of sorts in terms of what the job entails, and how it is performed. I think (and hope) that it will also result in a slightly different type of person who is interested in the job. But as that change occurs I think it will be difficult to find enough people to take that job.

In regards to what happens when not enough of people are willing to take up the sword, this was always my problem with that type of thinking. We allow ourselves to be “clean” by depending on others to do the “dirty” work. It doesn’t feel Christ-like.

What is the alternative for those who hold to Jesus' teaching on non-violence?

The change that I hope is coming may make it easier for anabaptists to participate in the vocation of policing.

The background to my theory: the role of authority figures in almost any type of position is constantly changing. It may be a slow change, but change nonetheless. For a big example you can witness the change from monarchies to democracies. Most parts of the earth came to the realization that they preferred a government/authority that was a bit more accountable to those who it rules.

This change occurs even in places where you wouldn’t think of it even being an authority type structure. As an example: nursing homes. My daughter recently started working at a local nursing home. I went with her on a tour of the facility and the staff member said that there was a time when nursing homes had a type of order that dictated every able body must be out of bed at a specific time. She said that they have changed this to allow people to get up when they want. Basically they have given the residents more autonomy. They are there to assist them in their sunset years, not to rule over them.

Another change is the way many parents are turning to what is usually called “gentle parenting.” It’s a method that relies less on the large power differential and is more collaborative. I started doing many of these things without making a conscious decision to do so, and I think it yields far better results, and enables a much healthier relationship between parents and children.

Currently policing gives enormous amounts of power to people with relatively little training. And at times it has specifically excluded those with higher IQs. It’s also a physical job. All of this combined means that it often attracts people who are power hungry, with fewer cognitive thinking abilities making them more likely to act rashly, and it’s enabled them to domineer the population. Obviously not all of them do this, but the ability is there for them to do this in a multitude of subtle ways. And it happens.

Contrast that with people who are prosecutors. They need much more education, basically requiring them to have the ability to think long term. They also have a lot of power, but their power is usually more likely to be documented, and it’s in the court system where checks and balances exist, much more than they do when a police officer is hauling you in for peaceful protesting and he decides to make the cuffs extremely tight.

I foresee a future where policing is much less aggressive, where it is more solutions focused. Like parenting, it may become more collaborative and less reliant on the power differential. I think it will require more education, and the power hungry people will be easier to weed out.

Now what about needing to take up the sword? There will obviously still be times when they need to use violence, as in the case of mass shooters. But for years anabaptists we’re perfectly fine with teachers using corporal punishment in their role as authority figures, and I can see a time when they are also ok with the sword required in policing, if the overall culture of policing is different.

I appreciate the thought given to this and would love to see a society where that kind of policing would be normal. Your theory suggests that a change in policing would help result in a better society. I think that is overly optimistic. IMO, the problems within society are not primarily a policing or authority problem, but rather a breakdown of God's design for families and churches. Until society gets back to that design, I'm doubtful things are going to evolve into a better society.

Can you point to countries or societies where the "authority figure" theory you are suggesting has moved them toward a more non-violent society?

[Sliceitup]

I appreciate the thought given to this and would love to see a society where that kind of policing would be normal. Your theory suggests that a change in policing would help result in a better society. I think that is overly optimistic. IMO, the problems within society are not primarily a policing or authority problem, but rather a breakdown of God's design for families and churches. Until society gets back to that design, I'm doubtful things are going to evolve into a better society.

Can you point to countries or societies where the "authority figure" theory you are suggesting has moved them toward a more non-violent society?

Here’s an article about a program in Scotland. It’s not possible to say that this alone was the reason why the situation improved, but it also didn’t hurt.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/e ... story.html

But beyond that, I can say that the difference between my oldest children and youngest children is, in my opinion, quite profound. They don’t have the anger issues that the oldest one did. I’ve asked the oldest if she feels this is a fair assessment and she agrees.

As a younger parent when the children didn’t do the “right thing” it was seen more as a discipline issue, now it’s seen as a problem to be discussed.

[joshuabgood]

Until society gets back to that design, I'm doubtful things are going to evolve into a better society.

When would you say society had the design that you would idealize them getting back to?