200 Mass shootings in 127 Days

[HondurasKeiser]

I would argue, as do other historically marginalized groups, that "Western culture" (yes, even in its Judeo/Christian guise) has often failed to value life, more than it values property/profit/individualism

My point is individualism values life while collectivism/communism/socialism does not.

Perhaps this is not the thread for this query but for the life of me I cannot understand your devotion to the idea of "individualism" or your persistence in seeing it as a binary choice between that and collectivism/communism/socialism.

[QuietlyListening]

Robert, in my experience, individualism seems to value MY rights, MY life- basically it's about me and what I can or cannot do- so it is no more community oriented than socialism, etc.

[Robert]

Perhaps this is not the thread for this query but for the life of me I cannot understand your devotion to the idea of "individualism" or your persistence in seeing it as a binary choice between that and collectivism/communism/socialism.

viewtopic.php?p=173185#p173185

See Article XI

[Jazman]

I would argue, as do other historically marginalized groups, that "Western culture" (yes, even in its Judeo/Christian guise) has often failed to value life, more than it values property/profit/individualism

My point is individualism values life while collectivism/communism/socialism does not.

I think I understand your point; and maybe based on comparing pure numbers, you might be right. And if we're talking about them as broad categories, rather than the extremes or variations. (To me it seems fairly self-evident that some more collectivist, but not communist/authoritarian societies must value life more than individualistic america does... the life expectancy, murder/suicide, infant/mother mortality rates seem to suggest we in the usa don't value life as much as we think we do... nor does individualism, as we practice it, lead to a culture that values all life.

So I'm not so sure pure individualism, especially the late stage extreme version (including its 'christian' variety) as birthed and honed to its logical extremes in this country, really values life as much as you're suggesting. I can't give individualism, as I understand it, a pass... I find both "isms" suspect on this question. (I bolded individualism because maybe that's where we have some differences. If we define it differently, then we're probably going to think about it, in this context, differently as well.)

Finally, I think we still have to face what the historical record seems to indicate...ie a high level of disdain for life that many western supposed 'christians' had or quickly developed upon their arrival as settlers here... Again, we can look at sheer numbers and maybe it looks like one can maintain a place on some kind of pedestal I erect for it...but I'm not sure.

(Maybe related, but maybe not, I found a long-form piece at Politico, entitled "Russia Has a Vodka Addiction..." interesting.) Maybe a case could be proposed that those historically communist/socialist societies were not necessarily, as a whole, valuing life less, but their individual (and individualistic) leaders were the ones not valuing life? Maybe the West has just democratized the disdain for life or imago Dei, and made it possible for more individuals throughout, to harbor and act on the same life cheapening attitude/means/expressions as any autocrat, regardless of ism, did in the past?

[Szdfan]

Robert, in my experience, individualism seems to value MY rights, MY life- basically it's about me and what I can or cannot do- so it is no more community oriented than socialism, etc.

A healthy society has some sort of balance between indi idualism and collectivism. Both the individual and community matter. Society cannot function well if there's not a sense that its members belong to something greater than themselves -- i.e. "we're all in this together." Society cannot function well if it's just a collection of individuals pursuing their own self-interests.

[Szdfan]

Violence has now become the primary way many see in promoting their ideology or taking power. People no longer believe that the pen is mightier than the sword. Most protests turn into riots because of this. Mass shootings are way of expressing oneself now and a way to become famous and known.

The growing acceptance in the mainstream of poltiical violence is a problem, but most of these mass shootings are apolitical.

[Szdfan]

There was a good editorial in the NYT by Roxane Gay called "Making People Uncomfortable Can Now Get You Killed."

(I gifted the opinion piece and you should be able to see it past the paywall.)
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/04/opin ... =url-share

The opinion piece isn't about mass shootings, but the recent high profile rash of killings over minor things. I think this is related to mass shootings. We are violent society that is becoming increasingly more violent due to the easy access to guns and a growing sense of isolation, alienation and disconnection from each other.

Increasingly, it is not safe to be in public, to be human, to be fallible. I’m not quoting breathless journalism about rising crime or conservative talking points about America falling into ruin. The ruin I’m thinking of isn’t in San Francisco or Chicago or at the southern border. The ruin is woven into the fabric of America. It’s seeping into all of us. All across the country, supposedly good, upstanding citizens are often fatally enforcing ever-changing, arbitrary and personal norms for how we conduct ourselves.

The piece mentions the following incidents:

• In St. Louis, 16 year old Ralph Yawl was shot by the homeowner when he accidentally went to the wrong address to pick up his brothers and rang the doorbell.
• In upstate New York, Kaylin Gillis was shot and killed by the homeowner when she accidentally drove up the wrong driveway looking for a different house.
• In Illinois, William Martys was shot and killed by his neighbor over an argument while using the leaf blower in his yard.
• Two cheerleaders in Texas were shot after one of them accidentally got into the wrong car
• In Nashville, Mitarius Boyd shot Travonsha Ferguson, who was seven months pregnant, over suspected shoplifting at a Walgreens.
• In New York City, Jordan Neely, a homeless Michael Jackson impersonator, was chocked to death by a former Marine in the subway because he was acting agressively and saying, "“I don’t have food, I don’t have a drink, I’m fed up...I don’t mind going to jail and getting life in prison. I’m ready to die.”

All of these innocent people who lost their lives were in the wrong place at the wrong time. In most cases, armed assailants deputized themselves to stand their ground or enforce justice for a petty crime. Some claimed self-defense, said they were afraid, though some of their victims were unarmed women and children. We have to ask the uncomfortable questions: Why are men so afraid? Why are they so fragile that they shoot or harm first and ask questions later? Why do they believe death or injury is an appropriate response to human fallibility? Public life shared with terrified and/or entitled and/or angry and/or disaffected men is untenable.

We are at something of an impasse. The list of things that can get you killed in public is expanding every single day. Whether it’s mass shootings or police brutality or random acts of violence, it only takes running into one scared man to have the worst and likely last day of your life. We can’t even agree on right and wrong anymore. Instead of addressing actual problems, like homelessness and displacement, lack of physical and mental health care, food scarcity, poverty, lax gun laws and more, we bury our heads in the sand. Only when this unchecked violence comes to our doorstep do we maybe care enough to try to effect change.

This upturn isn't violence isn't because of the government. It's not because of socalism or Marxism. Most of this violence comes from men with guns (or know how to do a chokehold in the Neely case) who are afraid or uncomfortable and deputized themselves to "stand their ground" and "defend" themselves from unarmed people. Something in our society has gone off the rails and we are paying the price for it.

[ken_sylvania]

There was a good editorial in the NYT by Roxane Gay called "Making People Uncomfortable Can Now Get You Killed."

(I gifted the opinion piece and you should be able to see it past the paywall.)
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/04/opin ... =url-share

The opinion piece isn't about mass shootings, but the recent high profile rash of killings over minor things. I think this is related to mass shootings. We are violent society that is becoming increasingly more violent due to the easy access to guns and a growing sense of isolation, alienation and disconnection from each other.

Increasingly, it is not safe to be in public, to be human, to be fallible. I’m not quoting breathless journalism about rising crime or conservative talking points about America falling into ruin. The ruin I’m thinking of isn’t in San Francisco or Chicago or at the southern border. The ruin is woven into the fabric of America. It’s seeping into all of us. All across the country, supposedly good, upstanding citizens are often fatally enforcing ever-changing, arbitrary and personal norms for how we conduct ourselves.

The piece mentions the following incidents:

• In St. Louis, 16 year old Ralph Yawl was shot by the homeowner when he accidentally went to the wrong address to pick up his brothers and rang the doorbell.
• In upstate New York, Kaylin Gillis was shot and killed by the homeowner when she accidentally drove up the wrong driveway looking for a different house.
• In Illinois, William Martys was shot and killed by his neighbor over an argument while using the leaf blower in his yard.
• Two cheerleaders in Texas were shot after one of them accidentally got into the wrong car
• In Nashville, Mitarius Boyd shot Travonsha Ferguson, who was seven months pregnant, over suspected shoplifting at a Walgreens.
• In New York City, Jordan Neely, a homeless Michael Jackson impersonator, was chocked to death by a former Marine in the subway because he was acting agressively and saying, "“I don’t have food, I don’t have a drink, I’m fed up...I don’t mind going to jail and getting life in prison. I’m ready to die.”

All of these innocent people who lost their lives were in the wrong place at the wrong time. In most cases, armed assailants deputized themselves to stand their ground or enforce justice for a petty crime. Some claimed self-defense, said they were afraid, though some of their victims were unarmed women and children. We have to ask the uncomfortable questions: Why are men so afraid? Why are they so fragile that they shoot or harm first and ask questions later? Why do they believe death or injury is an appropriate response to human fallibility? Public life shared with terrified and/or entitled and/or angry and/or disaffected men is untenable.

We are at something of an impasse. The list of things that can get you killed in public is expanding every single day. Whether it’s mass shootings or police brutality or random acts of violence, it only takes running into one scared man to have the worst and likely last day of your life. We can’t even agree on right and wrong anymore. Instead of addressing actual problems, like homelessness and displacement, lack of physical and mental health care, food scarcity, poverty, lax gun laws and more, we bury our heads in the sand. Only when this unchecked violence comes to our doorstep do we maybe care enough to try to effect change.

This upturn isn't violence isn't because of the government. It's not because of socalism or Marxism. Most of this violence comes from men with guns (or know how to do a chokehold in the Neely case) who are afraid or uncomfortable and deputized themselves to "stand their ground" and "defend" themselves from unarmed people. Something in our society has gone off the rails and we are paying the price for it.

What are the chances that anybody actually cares enough about the problem to really find out what happened in each of these cases? And really, truly try to find out whether the killers were "men who were afraid or uncomfortable and deputized themselves to 'defend' themselves from unarmed people"
or what was actually going on. As long as the approach to the problem continues to be to dehumanize and ridicule the "problem people" we won't get any closer to an answer. I don't expect Ms. Gay is likely to change many people's minds by mourning the "innocent" people who were killed for engaging in petty crime. Don't get me wrong - I'm not implying that any one of these people should have been shot, but in my opinion articles like this feed the very divisiveness that got this society to where it's at in the first place.

[Szdfan]

What are the chances that anybody actually cares enough about the problem to really find out what happened in each of these cases? And really, truly try to find out whether the killers were "men who were afraid or uncomfortable and deputized themselves to 'defend' themselves from unarmed people"
or what was actually going on. As long as the approach to the problem continues to be to dehumanize and ridicule the "problem people" we won't get any closer to an answer. I don't expect Ms. Gay is likely to change many people's minds by mourning the "innocent" people who were killed for engaging in petty crime. Don't get me wrong - I'm not implying that any one of these people should have been shot, but in my opinion articles like this feed the very divisiveness that got this society to where it's at in the first place.

The thing is that none of these victims committed a petty crime. It's not a crime to accidentally ring the wrong doorbell because you mixed up the address. It's not a crime to turn down the wrong driveway by accident while looking for a house. These people got shot for making normal human errors, not crimes.

[Ernie]

America has always had a violent culture that’s currently exasperated by our extreme sense of individualism, having too many guns and a growing lack of connection to community and each other.

Contrasted by the Marxists that the government killed millions upon millions.

So we have weaponized individuals who, on the mass, never harm anyone contrasted to weaponized governments that kill millions.

I will go for individualism.

Why contrast these two? Why not consider other non-Marxist countries?


https://studyfinds.org/mass-shootings-american-problem/
Or
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country
Typical (Median) Annual Death Rate per Million People from Mass Public Shootings (U.S., Canada, and Europe, 2009-2015):
United States — 0.058
Albania — 0
Austria — 0
Belgium — 0
Czech Republic — 0
Finland — 0
France — 0
Germany — 0
Italy — 0
Macedonia — 0
Netherlands — 0
Norway — 0
Russia — 0
Serbia — 0
Slovakia — 0
Switzerland — 0
United Kingdom — 0