Race in America: The Marital Counselor Analogy

[Ken]

Maybe. But nothing in your response tells me that you even read what I wrote. Perhaps you could respond directly to one or more of the points I made and explain your concerns so I can understand what you are saying in response to what I said? Let's please stick with the analogy that is at the heart of this thread. Feel free to find another thread if you don't like this one.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think issues of race are really about two groups talking to each other in some facsimile of marital counseling. That is definitely a liberal instinct, and I've definitely been subject to a lot of it over the years with various forms of diversity training and whatnot. I honestly don't think racism and race relations is about misunderstandings. I think we understand each other plenty.

Take Christianity as an example. Do you think we will reach some sort of ecumenical compromise and discover true Christianity if we simply have more conversations between Anabaptists and Catholics and Baptists? And that the disagreements between these different denominations are the fault of each side? And that if we just have enough conversations between say Catholics and Anabaptists we can reach some middle ground compromise position where we all agree as to the true and correct version of Christianity? Nobody believes that. Or very few do. Anabaptists adhere to their specific beliefs and Catholics adhere to their specific beliefs. Very few minds are going to change if you put everyone into a room with a counselor to work out the differences.

When it comes to race in this country there are actual objective questions about which people disagree. And the answer isn't some middle ground compromise any more then there is some middle ground compromise where true Christianity lies.

Black Lives Matter activists (who are both Black and White) believe that there are inherent biases in policing in this country that are deep seated and that Black people (especially Black men) are likely to be treated more harshly by the police and Criminal justice system. And that Black lives are undervalued by the criminal justice system and society. They are either CORRECT in this belief or they are INCORRECT. It would probably have been better if the movement had labeled itself "BLACK LIVES MATTER TOO" which is what the slogan really means. But that is water under the bridge.

A lot of conservatives believe that race no longer matters in this country. That systemic racism, if it did exist in the past, is no longer an issue in 2023 America. And that they have no personal biases (don't see Black or White). They are either CORRECT in that belief or they are INCORRECT. Some also believe we should not be teaching about race and racism in schools because it is old history and that we should not be making White children uncomfortable about America's history of racism that they had nothing to do with. That is how we end up with states like Florida censoring school books that touch on the uncomfortable subject of race.

I honestly don't think that more conversation will do much to resolve any of this. It is group and identity politics.

When it comes to actual racism there is both individual racism and group (systemic) racism. When it comes to individual racism, i.e. people who discriminate against others based on race. Whether it is things like employment, housing, policing, criminal justice, education, etc. Then that is a problem and it needs to stop. If I am running a business and I have an employee White or Black who is discriminating against customers or other employees based on race. Then that simply needs to stop. And it needs to stop now. Or I fire that person. I don't need to sit them down with customers or other employees and have them work out their differences with counseling. That is what I mean by it isn't the job or responsibility of the victims of racism to help fix racists. That just isn't their burden.

Likewise, when it comes to systemic racism. It is either real or is is not. Take an education example. It is either true that Black children are punished and disciplined more harshly than White children in schools for the same offenses. Or it is not true. No amount of sitting down and having conversations between Black children and White administrators is going to solve that problem. If it is true, then the people who run schools need to figure out how to fix it. The burden doesn't lie with the Black 3rd graders who might be subject to a biased school system.

And if you want to come up with examples of Black bias against white people, go ahead. I'm not sure what examples you have in mind but you must have some ideas since you think this is a "both-sides" issue. And we can discuss those specific examples and figure out where the fault lies and who's responsibility it is to address it. But I don't necessarily think more talk will resolve anything. Mostly what White conservatives seem to complain about is things like BLM activists who commit acts of vandalism or violence during protests. To which I would answer sure. That absolutely NEEDS to stop. And if people are breaking windows and burning buildings they need to be prosecuted for that. Sitting down in a room and having mediated conversations with White conservatives is not going to accomplish anything. And it isn't the responsibility of White conservatives to fix their rage and destructive impulses. They need to be held accountable for any wrong they are doing.

In any event, I think that mostly what you are talking about is politics not race. When you use the term "groups" you are really not talking about White people versus Black people. What you are talking about is one group on the liberal end of the spectrum that is fairly diverse (Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, etc.) that has one set of political beliefs around the topic of race. And you have another group on the conservative end of the spectrum that is also diverse (more White but also many Hispanics, Asian Americans, and even some Blacks) who have a completely different set of political beliefs on the topic of race. And I honestly don't think more conversation is going to change many minds. Or that there is any middle ground answer to most of these questions that is the correct one. Any more than there is some middle ground between Anabaptists and Catholics that is the correct version of Christianity.

[ohio jones]

But I don't necessarily think more talk will resolve anything.

Evidence suggests otherwise.

[Ken]

But I don't necessarily think more talk will resolve anything.

Evidence suggests otherwise.

Examples?

Look at this forum. We write instead of talking. But do you think anyone's mind gets changed here in any substantive way? On race or any other subject?

[Soloist]

But I don't necessarily think more talk will resolve anything.

Evidence suggests otherwise.

Examples?

Look at this forum. We write instead of talking. But do you think anyone's mind gets changed here in any substantive way? On race or any other subject?

So why do you waste your time then?

[ohio jones]

But I don't necessarily think more talk will resolve anything.

Evidence suggests otherwise.

Examples?

Look at this forum. We write instead of talking.

In the very next paragraph you tell Bootstrap what he is and isn't talking about. Yes, we are "talking" here, in written form. What we don't seem to do very well is listen.

I'm tempted to quote your last several voluminous posts here as evidence that you do indeed appear to think talking helps, and more talking helps more. But I don't necessarily think that will resolve anything.

But do you think anyone's mind gets changed here in any substantive way? On race or any other subject?

While a total change of opinion is rare, I've been introduced to new ways of looking at things that have influenced my thinking on a variety of subjects. Others have too. But it requires both talking and listening.

[Bootstrap]

Maybe. But nothing in your response tells me that you even read what I wrote. Perhaps you could respond directly to one or more of the points I made and explain your concerns so I can understand what you are saying in response to what I said? Let's please stick with the analogy that is at the heart of this thread. Feel free to find another thread if you don't like this one.

What I'm trying to say is ...

Snort. Exactly what I was talking about in the above paragraph. I still can't tell if you have read what I said or what you are responding to. I can't tell what you think and feel, either, in your own life and relationships.

I honestly don't think racism and race relations is about misunderstandings. I think we understand each other plenty.

I doubt it. I think part of the problem is that some people claim to be able to represent what others think and feel - and often don't have much to say about what they themselves think and feel. And part of the problem is some people aren't even interested in discussing what others say about what they think and feel, they talk right over that, often with the same narratives over and over again. In marriage and in most other relationships, we probably get the most value when we talk about our own feelings and thoughts and relationships, or ask about what others say about their own feelings and thoughts and relationships.

In my own relationships, I often don't think we "understand each other plenty". I think you can spend a lifetime getting to know each other. That's also true across racial and cultural lines. But we can't do that in conversations where we try to score points, where we form sides, where one side has to win and the other side has to lose. We need conversations that seek understanding. I'm often surprised by what people think and feel about these issues, and black people I know think and feel differently about some of the same questions.

[Bootstrap]

Play the marriage counselor here and tell us what percentage of blame should be assigned to the landlord in this case, and what percentage of blame should be assigned to the Black applicants who were otherwise qualified to rent but were denied housing because of their race?

OK, let me play the marital counselor.

The landlord is not in the room. We are in the room. Tell me about your own experiences, or people you know. Have you ever felt that including black people in your church or work or friendship circles required learning about each other, hearing new perspectives, making room for the other? Were you surprised by some of the things you experienced?

I'm surprised by some of the dynamics even in my own family, places where I have been clueless because I wasn't listening. Places where people did not feel heard, did not feel included, where people were concerned about what they thought other people might be thinking. I'm trying to get better at this.

[Josh]

Play the marriage counselor here and tell us what percentage of blame should be assigned to the landlord in this case, and what percentage of blame should be assigned to the Black applicants who were otherwise qualified to rent but were denied housing because of their race?

OK, let me play the marital counselor.

The landlord is not in the room. We are in the room. Tell me about your own experiences, or people you know. Have you ever felt that including black people in your church or work or friendship circles required learning about each other, hearing new perspectives, making room for the other? Were you surprised by some of the things you experienced?

I'm surprised by some of the dynamics even in my own family, places where I have been clueless because I wasn't listening. Places where people did not feel heard, did not feel included, where people were concerned about what they thought other people might be thinking. I'm trying to get better at this.

This is a good way to think, although I don’t have friction and bad relationships between black and white people in my own life. Where there has been friction, it had zip all to do with race.

Part of this is that I treat people like individuals, not like members of a group. As far as my own church’s politics go, I tend to agree more with the African wing vs the Canadian and American wings and wish they had more influence or were listened to more.

[Ken]

Snort. Exactly what I was talking about in the above paragraph. I still can't tell if you have read what I said or what you are responding to. I can't tell what you think and feel, either, in your own life and relationships.

Lets go back to exactly what you wrote then, which was this:

I think that's the problem I'm talking about. People separate into their own camps, blaming the other. Instead of coming together and working things out together. Especially on the national level, I think. In my city, we see blacks and whites working things out at the city government level, in the county, in the schools. Look at our national media. Each side often polarizes race and make it an identity issue - for both whites and blacks - and erupts in blame at the other. On the one side, they claim that they do not see race but simply can't stop talking about it in very emotional tones, it's clearly a big issue on their minds. On the other side, they are building a theology of wokeness and are nervous about facing the complexities of race and class and discussing the importance of personal responsibility. One side emphasizes how much they care about black lives, the other emphasizes how much they care about police lives and law and order, it's hard to find mature discussion that takes both seriously. That's a problem.

What you are essentially saying is that race has become politically polarized, to which I would agree. However, what I think that REALLY means is that the current divide isn't about race at all, it is about politics. And race is just a proxy for a larger political battle in this country. You could pick any other major issue: guns, abortion, education, health care, criminal justice, the environment and climate change, even elections. It doesn't matter. People align on essentially the same liberal versus conservative lines. So all these culture war arguments about "wokeness" and BLM and so forth, aren't so much about race at all. They are about two competing political visions for the country. And race is just one of many different battlefields.

And I honestly don't think any amount of talking it out is going to resolve that divide. The only thing that will is generational change. And then we will have new divides that look different from today.

We can and should have actual conversations about race and racism in this country. But that is a very different conversation from the one you reference that is currently happening in the political sphere about wokeness, BLM, CRT, DEI, and whatever are the latest scary buzzwords. That is all just politics.

Even the whole black lives matter movement that swept across the country in the summer of 2000 with massive protests? I would argue that was also very much a proxy political protest against Trump and what he represented. Six years earlier when Obama was present the same thing happened in Ferguson MO in 2014 with the Michael Brown killing but Obama was president. And while there were protests in Ferguson that spread to a few other cities, the movement didn't gain any of the same national traction as it did in 2020 under Trump. The BLM movement, while it was about race, was also about protesting the political direction the country was taking under Trump. And that is what gave it such momentum.

So you could say that both sides are weaponizing race for political gain. I would argue that it isn't ultimately a racial divide but a political divide. And I don't think any amount of talking is going to close that political divide. And trying to talk through specific issues like "wokeness" or CRT is to miss the symptoms for the cause.

[Bootstrap]

Lets go back to exactly what you wrote then,

Thanks.

... which was this:

I think that's the problem I'm talking about. People separate into their own camps, blaming the other. Instead of coming together and working things out together. Especially on the national level, I think. In my city, we see blacks and whites working things out at the city government level, in the county, in the schools. Look at our national media. Each side often polarizes race and make it an identity issue - for both whites and blacks - and erupts in blame at the other. On the one side, they claim that they do not see race but simply can't stop talking about it in very emotional tones, it's clearly a big issue on their minds. On the other side, they are building a theology of wokeness and are nervous about facing the complexities of race and class and discussing the importance of personal responsibility. One side emphasizes how much they care about black lives, the other emphasizes how much they care about police lives and law and order, it's hard to find mature discussion that takes both seriously. That's a problem.

What you are essentially saying is that race has become politically polarized, to which I would agree. However, what I think that REALLY means is that the current divide isn't about race at all, it is about politics. And race is just a proxy for a larger political battle in this country.

Here's one place where we see things differently.

I think we often talk as though that were true. But what gets lost in all of that is real discussions that actually are about race, which actually does exist in our society. And not just because of politics. And we have people whose concerns are rarely discussed across racial lines as normal, human issues because politics has coopted the issue.

But wait ... as I keep reading, I'm not sure how differently we are seeing things.

You could pick any other major issue: guns, abortion, education, health care, criminal justice, the environment and climate change, even elections. It doesn't matter. People align on essentially the same liberal versus conservative lines. So all these culture war arguments about "wokeness" and BLM and so forth, aren't so much about race at all. They are about two competing political visions for the country. And race is just one of many different battlefields.

On most of these issues, I think similar things are happening - the actual policy issues are getting lost in the political fight, making it harder and harder to have informed discussion across the partisan political lines people are drawing. When we should be discussing the issue itself, we wind up treating the issue as a proxy in a political war, so the issue gets lost.

We can and should have actual conversations about race and racism in this country. But that is a very different conversation from the one you reference that is currently happening in the political sphere about wokeness, BLM, CRT, DEI, and whatever are the latest scary buzzwords. That is all just politics.

Well exactly.

So you could say that both sides are weaponizing race for political gain. I would argue that it isn't ultimately a racial divide but a political divide. And I don't think any amount of talking is going to close that political divide. And trying to talk through specific issues like "wokeness" or CRT is to miss the symptoms for the cause.

But perhaps if we drop all those terms and framing and talk about our own experiences, as one person to another?