Race in America: The Marital Counselor Analogy

[Josh]

The global elites prefer a state of chaos and conflict, and continue to promote situations that put different people groups at war with one another. Until you fix that problem, nothing is going to change.

[Grace]

So you think we should put the blame entirely on one side, always treating blacks as innocent victims of whites? And you have some examples of bad behavior by whites, but none of bad behavior by blacks?

I think that's the problem I'm talking about. People separate into their own camps, blaming the other. Instead of coming together and working things out together. Especially on the national level, I think. In my city, we see blacks and whites working things out at the city government level, in the county, in the schools. Look at our national media. Each side often polarizes race and make it an identity issue - for both whites and blacks - and erupts in blame at the other. On the one side, they claim that they do not see race but simply can't stop talking about it in very emotional tones, it's clearly a big issue on their minds. On the other side, they are building a theology of wokeness and are nervous about facing the complexities of race and class and discussing the importance of personal responsibility. One side emphasizes how much they care about black lives, the other emphasizes how much they care about police lives and law and order, it's hard to find mature discussion that takes both seriously. That's a problem.

As a country, I think we are moving backwards on race. And a big part of that is that we are having a harder time discussing these things in ways that can lead to real solutions. I don't think either a police state or a completely woke society will solve the problems of inner city poverty. I do think there are things society can do that make a difference. But they aren't a prominent part of our discussion. We're too busy blaming each other and taking sides.

Like a married couple who can't balance their budget because they are too busy arguing about whose fault it is. They never get down to the business of calmly talking through income and expenses and making wise choices.

There are issues we might disagree on, but I agree with these comments. Well said.

When one our children was in kindergarten he shared the front bus seat (where they always seated the kindergartners) with a little black girl. They became very good friends and I babysat the little girl a few times. One day I asked our child if he ever noticed they didn't share the same skin color. He never even noticed that fact, but viewed her only as a fun friend and bus seatmate. I never mentioned it again and she continued being one of his friends. This country needs to become like our children when it comes to race.

[temporal1]

The global elites prefer a state of chaos and conflict, and continue to promote situations that put different people groups at war with one another. Until you fix that problem, nothing is going to change.

Diamond. (A point Mr Jim made on MD) .. he wasn’t the first or only one to notice. He was correct.


Most unfortunately, in the U.S., alone, they, the profiteers, have deep pockets and protected legal power to secure their personal fortunes. WE, ALL OF US, all colors, all cultures, faiths, descriptions, are stooges for their (“obscene”) godless games.
Many are convinced they can win in this mess, that they can “think”/logic their way through it. Pray for these!

Trillions:

t1,
Trillions is nothing. The U.S. debt is on track to hit quadrillions within my lifetime.

i dwell in the past.

There may come a day when Faulkner’s quote may become irrelevant, when “the past will be over.”
Congress is spending the way there.

[Bootstrap]

The global elites prefer a state of chaos and conflict, and continue to promote situations that put different people groups at war with one another. Until you fix that problem, nothing is going to change.

But we can own our own behavior. And when these topics come up, we can decide whether we want to act like a good marital counselor or egg on the sides, repeating the talking points the global elites give us. And there are global elites on both sides of our partisan factions, they have found ways to benefit by stoking conflict. If you read the Fox News materials disclosed in the Dominion case, it's pretty clear that a lot of "populism" is astroturf, created to make global elites more powerful by spreading lies that engage people.

We don't have to let them control us, we own our own words, thoughts, and actions. But we have to be aware of the water we are swimming in.

[temporal1]

The global elites prefer a state of chaos and conflict, and continue to promote situations that put different people groups at war with one another. Until you fix that problem, nothing is going to change.

But we can own our own behavior. And when these topics come up, we can decide whether we want to act like a good marital counselor or egg on the sides, repeating the talking points the global elites give us. And there are global elites on both sides of our partisan factions, they have found ways to benefit by stoking conflict. If you read the Fox News materials disclosed in the Dominion case, it's pretty clear that a lot of "populism" is astroturf, created to make global elites more powerful by spreading lies that engage people.

We don't have to let them control us, we own our own words, thoughts, and actions. But we have to be aware of the water we are swimming in.

i agree in principle with what you’re saying, Jesus came for this very reason. He is The Way.

Unfortunately, your words reflect the deep partisanship - Josh didn’t HINT that the problem was partisan! And usually doesn’t.
Nor did i. Nor did Mr Jim.

You jumped to “correct” Josh, which reflects a partisan, accusing spirit. This is what “they” do. They divide.
And they are very-very good at it. Can you choose to divest yourself from it?

Marriage counseling isn’t easy - for those who are good at it.
Listening without presuming/accusing isn’t easy.

It’s not a once and done thing. Scriptures describe the necessity of vigilance. Not the easy path.

[Ken]

So you think we should put the blame entirely on one side, always treating blacks as innocent victims of whites? And you have some examples of bad behavior by whites, but none of bad behavior by blacks?

I think that's the problem I'm talking about. People separate into their own camps, blaming the other. Instead of coming together and working things out together. Especially on the national level, I think. In my city, we see blacks and whites working things out at the city government level, in the county, in the schools. Look at our national media. Each side often polarizes race and make it an identity issue - for both whites and blacks - and erupts in blame at the other. On the one side, they claim that they do not see race but simply can't stop talking about it in very emotional tones, it's clearly a big issue on their minds. On the other side, they are building a theology of wokeness and are nervous about facing the complexities of race and class and discussing the importance of personal responsibility. One side emphasizes how much they care about black lives, the other emphasizes how much they care about police lives and law and order, it's hard to find mature discussion that takes both seriously. That's a problem.

As a country, I think we are moving backwards on race. And a big part of that is that we are having a harder time discussing these things in ways that can lead to real solutions. I don't think either a police state or a completely woke society will solve the problems of inner city poverty. I do think there are things society can do that make a difference. But they aren't a prominent part of our discussion. We're too busy blaming each other and taking sides.

Like a married couple who can't balance their budget because they are too busy arguing about whose fault it is. They never get down to the business of calmly talking through income and expenses and making wise choices.

I think you are conflating a lot of different things here and engaging in generalizations that are not particularly useful. And you are throwing out euphemisms like "bad behavior." Since your title includes the word "race" and the subject is "racism we should probably actually use some definitions.

Race as it is understood here in the US is actually a construct of white society. If you go back not all that far you find cringeworthy concepts like "octoroons" and "quintroons" and all kinds of ways that white people defined anyone else as non-white based on genealogy. Funny how one one Black great-grandfather made a White person Black but one White Great-grandfather didn't make a Black person White.

Racism has a specific meaning and not all " bad behavior" as you put it is based on racism.

From Miriam Webster: a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race, ALSO behavior or attitudes that reflect and foster this belief : racial discrimination or prejudice

From Oxford Language Dictionary: the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another. "theories of racism"

So a correct definition of racism is actually bias towards others based on a belief in racial differences or racial superiority. And not all bad behavior or even hatred is based on racism. Just to provide some examples:

In another thread about Amish cleanliness there is a whole side discussion about how Amish cheat non-Amish midwives which expanded to include general examples of how Amish treat non-Amish poorly. This is most definitely BAD BEHAVIOR on the part of the Amish. And it may even arise from a sense of superiority among the Amish and feelings that non-Amish (English) are inferior or less deserving of respect. However I would suggest that these beliefs are not race-based. Amish do not discriminate against non-Amish because they believe non-Amish are racially-inferior. The do so for reasons of cultural clannishness and religion. Amish might still also be racist as well, but this particular "bad behavior" does not originate from racism.

Another example. During WW2, Nazi Germany developed an extraordinarily virulent racist ideology that placed Jews at the center of all their social and economic problems and which led to the Holocaust. I would imagine that there were very many European Jews caught up in the Holocaust and for decades after who nurtured extreme hatred for Germans. However I would suggest that Jewish hatred of Germans during and after WW2 was not based on racism but simply due to German behavior. In other words, European Jews did not construct their own theories of Jewish racial superiority and German racial inferiority. They just hated what the German state did to them with the complicity of German citizens and correctly blamed Germany for their persecution. That is hate. And it is hatred towards another group. But I would suggest it does not originate from racism and Jews are not being racist if they happen to hate Germans.

Now we obviously have all manner of bad behavior in our society. But I would suggest that only a small percentage of it is actually based on racism. And behavior is largely an individual rather than group thing. So in my example of the racist landlord who refused to rent to Black people? He was engaging in bad behavior that was motivated by racism. In that particular example, the blame for the behavior falls 100% onto the racist landlord. The Black applicants who are being denied housing are doing nothing, and may not even know that the reason they are being denied is due to their race. They might suspect it based on experience. But they don't know that is the reason unless they are told.

I imagine you can find all type of bad behavior that Black people engage in. But not all of it is based on racism. If you are treated badly by a black person it *MIGHT* be because he holds a racist belief that you are racially inferior. Or it might be that he is just a bad person who treats everyone badly. Or he might be like the Jewish person above who has been treated poorly by racist Whites his whole life and just prefers not to deal with Whites, or even dislikes them. But not because he believes they are racially inferior. Just because he has history and experience.

I honestly don't think we are sliding backwards on race as a country. I think we are better than we have ever been in many ways. I do, however, think there is one particular party that is turning race into a culture war issue for political gain. And that is bad. But I don't think it generally represents backsliding by society as a whole.

I also have heard Black people say things to the effect of "YOUR racism is not MY problem to solve" And I think we should take that to heart. There is a constant desire among liberal White folks to have "conversations about race" and I think a lot of Black people just find it tiresome. It isn't their job to fix your racism. Whites invented race and the history of racism in this country is largely a history of White racism towards Blacks and to a lesser degree everyone else who is non-White (Asians, Hispanics, Native Americans, etc.). That is actually why I drumbeat about race here. Because I think it is largely something that White society needs to fix for itself.

And I would also point out that the instant you start talking about groups here, you are straying away from the concept of individual racism and into the area of "systemic racism", which opens up a whole different discussion.

[Josh]

So helpful of Ken to mansplain on basically any topic.

[ken_sylvania]

So you think we should put the blame entirely on one side, always treating blacks as innocent victims of whites? And you have some examples of bad behavior by whites, but none of bad behavior by blacks?

I think that's the problem I'm talking about. People separate into their own camps, blaming the other. Instead of coming together and working things out together. Especially on the national level, I think. In my city, we see blacks and whites working things out at the city government level, in the county, in the schools. Look at our national media. Each side often polarizes race and make it an identity issue - for both whites and blacks - and erupts in blame at the other. On the one side, they claim that they do not see race but simply can't stop talking about it in very emotional tones, it's clearly a big issue on their minds. On the other side, they are building a theology of wokeness and are nervous about facing the complexities of race and class and discussing the importance of personal responsibility. One side emphasizes how much they care about black lives, the other emphasizes how much they care about police lives and law and order, it's hard to find mature discussion that takes both seriously. That's a problem.

As a country, I think we are moving backwards on race. And a big part of that is that we are having a harder time discussing these things in ways that can lead to real solutions. I don't think either a police state or a completely woke society will solve the problems of inner city poverty. I do think there are things society can do that make a difference. But they aren't a prominent part of our discussion. We're too busy blaming each other and taking sides.

Like a married couple who can't balance their budget because they are too busy arguing about whose fault it is. They never get down to the business of calmly talking through income and expenses and making wise choices.

I think you are conflating a lot of different things here and engaging in generalizations that are not particularly useful. And you are throwing out euphemisms like "bad behavior." Since your title includes the word "race" and the subject is "racism we should probably actually use some definitions.

Race as it is understood here in the US is actually a construct of white society. If you go back not all that far you find cringeworthy concepts like "octoroons" and "quintroons" and all kinds of ways that white people defined anyone else as non-white based on genealogy. Funny how one one Black great-grandfather made a White person Black but one White Great-grandfather didn't make a Black person White.

Racism has a specific meaning and not all " bad behavior" as you put it is based on racism.

From Miriam Webster: a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race, ALSO behavior or attitudes that reflect and foster this belief : racial discrimination or prejudice

From Oxford Language Dictionary: the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another. "theories of racism"

So a correct definition of racism is actually bias towards others based on a belief in racial differences or racial superiority. And not all bad behavior or even hatred is based on racism. Just to provide some examples:

In another thread about Amish cleanliness there is a whole side discussion about how Amish cheat non-Amish midwives which expanded to include general examples of how Amish treat non-Amish poorly. This is most definitely BAD BEHAVIOR on the part of the Amish. And it may even arise from a sense of superiority among the Amish and feelings that non-Amish (English) are inferior or less deserving of respect. However I would suggest that these beliefs are not race-based. Amish do not discriminate against non-Amish because they believe non-Amish are racially-inferior. The do so for reasons of cultural clannishness and religion. Amish might still also be racist as well, but this particular "bad behavior" does not originate from racism.

Another example. During WW2, Nazi Germany developed an extraordinarily virulent racist ideology that placed Jews at the center of all their social and economic problems and which led to the Holocaust. I would imagine that there were very many European Jews caught up in the Holocaust and for decades after who nurtured extreme hatred for Germans. However I would suggest that Jewish hatred of Germans during and after WW2 was not based on racism but simply due to German behavior. In other words, European Jews did not construct their own theories of Jewish racial superiority and German racial inferiority. They just hated what the German state did to them with the complicity of German citizens and correctly blamed Germany for their persecution. That is hate. And it is hatred towards another group. But I would suggest it does not originate from racism and Jews are not being racist if they happen to hate Germans.

Now we obviously have all manner of bad behavior in our society. But I would suggest that only a small percentage of it is actually based on racism. And behavior is largely an individual rather than group thing. So in my example of the racist landlord who refused to rent to Black people? He was engaging in bad behavior that was motivated by racism. In that particular example, the blame for the behavior falls 100% onto the racist landlord. The Black applicants who are being denied housing are doing nothing, and may not even know that the reason they are being denied is due to their race. They might suspect it based on experience. But they don't know that is the reason unless they are told.

I imagine you can find all type of bad behavior that Black people engage in. But not all of it is based on racism. If you are treated badly by a black person it *MIGHT* be because he holds a racist belief that you are racially inferior. Or it might be that he is just a bad person who treats everyone badly. Or he might be like the Jewish person above who has been treated poorly by racist Whites his whole life and just prefers not to deal with Whites, or even dislikes them. But not because he believes they are racially inferior. Just because he has history and experience.

I honestly don't think we are sliding backwards on race as a country. I think we are better than we have ever been in many ways. I do, however, think there is one particular party that is turning race into a culture war issue for political gain. And that is bad. But I don't think it generally represents backsliding by society as a whole.

I also have heard Black people say things to the effect of "YOUR racism is not MY problem to solve" And I think we should take that to heart. There is a constant desire among liberal White folks to have "conversations about race" and I think a lot of Black people just find it tiresome. It isn't their job to fix your racism. Whites invented race and the history of racism in this country is largely a history of White racism towards Blacks and to a lesser degree everyone else who is non-White (Asians, Hispanics, Native Americans, etc.). That is actually why I drumbeat about race here. Because I think it is largely something that White society needs to fix for itself.

And I would also point out that the instant you start talking about groups here, you are straying away from the concept of individual racism and into the area of "systemic racism", which opens up a whole different discussion.

If I understand your examples correctly, you are saying that if a Jew hates the Germans and treats them poorly because of what some Germans did to the Jews, he is not racist. But if a landlord has been treated poorly by some Black people in the past, and proceeds to refuse to rent to Black people because he believes there is a greater likelihood that they will treat him poorly in the future, he is racist.

[Ken]

If I understand your examples correctly, you are saying that if a Jew hates the Germans and treats them poorly because of what some Germans did to the Jews, he is not racist. But if a landlord has been treated poorly by some Black people in the past, and proceeds to refuse to rent to Black people because he believes there is a greater likelihood that they will treat him poorly in the future, he is racist.

Again, it goes to motivation.

Both are examples of bad behavior. But are they based on notions of racial superiority/inferiority? Or some other reason.

Not everything is about race. If Jews treat ethnic Germans badly because of some belief that ethnic Germans are genetically or racially inferior to Jews then that is racism. If Jews treat ethnic Germans badly because of how they were treated during WW2 then that is vengeance. Both might be "bad behaviors" but they come from different places.

Or to use related example. During WW2 there was intense hatred between German and Russian/Soviet troops and civilians. On that part of Germans it was motivated by racism. They truly believed they were the master race and that Russians/Slavs were inferior. Russians, on the other hand, hated Germans intensely, but it was not racial hatred. There was no Russian ideology that they were the superior race and that Germans were the inferior race that needed to be subjected or exterminated. They just wanted to destroy Germany for political reasons.

Or use the US example in WW2. Hatred of Germany on the part of Americans was not based on racial reasons. It was politics. Americans hated the Nazis and they were the enemy. In fact, something like 40% of all Americans had German ancestry. There was no particular belief on the part of Americans that Germans were some kind of inferior race. By contrast, hatred of the Japanese in WW2 had both racial and political overtones. It was probably primarily political. THEY attacked US. And we were perfectly happy to ally with other Asian people like the Chinese. But there was a clear racial element to hatred of Japanese during WW2.

In the case of your white landlord who refuses to rent to Blacks. I guess we would have to ask where that bias comes from. Is it based on racial stereotypes? Or is it based on actual experience with those particular people who are submitting rental applications. In the story I linked to the landlord wasn't even considering applications from Black doctors and Black nurses. Did he have specific bad experiences renting to other black doctors and Black nurses? Perhaps. But I doubt it. I expect it was really just bias based on racial prejudice that wasn't the result of actual experience.

[Bootstrap]

So you think we should put the blame entirely on one side, always treating blacks as innocent victims of whites? And you have some examples of bad behavior by whites, but none of bad behavior by blacks?

I think that's the problem I'm talking about. People separate into their own camps, blaming the other. Instead of coming together and working things out together. Especially on the national level, I think. In my city, we see blacks and whites working things out at the city government level, in the county, in the schools. Look at our national media. Each side often polarizes race and make it an identity issue - for both whites and blacks - and erupts in blame at the other. On the one side, they claim that they do not see race but simply can't stop talking about it in very emotional tones, it's clearly a big issue on their minds. On the other side, they are building a theology of wokeness and are nervous about facing the complexities of race and class and discussing the importance of personal responsibility. One side emphasizes how much they care about black lives, the other emphasizes how much they care about police lives and law and order, it's hard to find mature discussion that takes both seriously. That's a problem.

As a country, I think we are moving backwards on race. And a big part of that is that we are having a harder time discussing these things in ways that can lead to real solutions. I don't think either a police state or a completely woke society will solve the problems of inner city poverty. I do think there are things society can do that make a difference. But they aren't a prominent part of our discussion. We're too busy blaming each other and taking sides.

Like a married couple who can't balance their budget because they are too busy arguing about whose fault it is. They never get down to the business of calmly talking through income and expenses and making wise choices.

I think you are conflating a lot of different things here and engaging in generalizations that are not particularly useful. And you are throwing out euphemisms like "bad behavior."

Maybe. But nothing in your response tells me that you even read what I wrote. Perhaps you could respond directly to one or more of the points I made and explain your concerns so I can understand what you are saying in response to what I said? Let's please stick with the analogy that is at the heart of this thread. Feel free to find another thread if you don't like this one.

Since your title includes the word "race" and the subject is "racism we should probably actually use some definitions.

To me, this feels like you are saying what I said is irrelevant, and you imply that I have never seen those definitions. I have. I feel like we often see exactly the same discussion in every thread that mentions race, as though what others are saying simply does not matter. I think that's exactly the problem I am trying to get at in my post.

I have a line of thought that I would like to pursue here. If you don't like that line of thought, please try another thread. If you would like to help me explore this analogy, let's talk it out.