Gender confusion

[Ken]

.. this issue comes down to principles. ..

100% reject.
principles+morality are what godless self-serving PROFITEERS hide behind. it’s extremely effective at “divide+conquer.”

i understand how this realization could be so unnerving, denial is preferred. nobody wants to be made a fool, esp in public.

acid test:
when abortions and surgeries are paid out-of-pocket by promoters, this would indicate principles+morality matter.
FOR PROFIT death and mutilation of innocents rings specially filthy.

Abortion is actually an excellent comparison.

The pro-life movement actually made a very principled argument in favor of outlawing abortion. Namely that life begins at conception and that abortion is tantamount to murder. Those are fundamental principles. And they are UNIVERSAL principles that apply in all circumstances, not just abortion. Correct? Or do pro-life activists claim that those principles only apply in the case of abortion and not other circumstances?

On the issue of abortion, people can agree or disagree with those principles and argue that they are wrong, or outweighed by other principles like the right to privacy. But the abortion argument was almost entirely an argument about principles.

The same principled arguments simply do not exist in the movement to outlaw transgender medical care or discriminate against transgender youth in bathrooms and such. Or if they do exist, I simply haven't seen anyone express them in any coherent manner. I see all kinds of random anecdotes thrown against the wall to see what sticks. But no actual general principles behind any of it. At least no principles that outweigh our American presumption in favor of freedom, parental rights, and medical autonomy.

[Soloist]

You really don’t get it Ken. I tried to explain it to you.

[temporal1]

There is deliberate conflation of what is legal - - with what is paid by gov funding.
That’s just one problem in this. It should be addressed up-front, with clarity.

i may want a face lift (or i’ll kill myself, i must have it).
Neither insurance nor government will pay for it, no matter how i complain.

All i (will) need is a surgeon to sign off on the perceived/claimed necessity. Historically, a hard NO.

If this thing progresses, there will be no argument remaining for refusal to pay for any elective/cosmetic surgery.
If child mutilation is funded, adult mutilation should be a slam-dunk, no questions asked.

[i see you dropped claims that this isn’t about gov funds.] That was especially idiotic.

[Ken]

You really don’t get it Ken. I tried to explain it to you.

I guess I just don't get it. Maybe I'm dense. You keep asking me to "get" things without actually articulating or explaining with evidence what it is that you want me to "get". And what "getting it" actually means for your larger argument.

Does that mean you are just going to give up and not even try?

[Soloist]

You really don’t get it Ken. I tried to explain it to you.

I guess I just don't get it. Maybe I'm dense. You keep asking me to "get" things without actually articulating or explaining with evidence what it is that you want me to "get". And what "getting it" actually means for your larger argument.

Does that mean you are just going to give up and not even try?

If you don’t understand that study designs eliminate a population group and then the same studies state that said population doesn’t exist or is a very small minority… I don’t see how I can explain to you so that you understand.

I don’t see a point in continuing.

[Ken]

You really don’t get it Ken. I tried to explain it to you.

I guess I just don't get it. Maybe I'm dense. You keep asking me to "get" things without actually articulating or explaining with evidence what it is that you want me to "get". And what "getting it" actually means for your larger argument.

Does that mean you are just going to give up and not even try?

If you don’t understand that study designs eliminate a population group and then the same studies state that said population doesn’t exist or is a very small minority… I don’t see how I can explain to you so that you understand.

I don’t see a point in continuing.

You haven't actually provided any evidence that all the studies in question actually eliminate a relevant population group. Only vague references to anonymous postings on reddit forums that apparently make that claim. But there have actually been dozens of independent studies on this topic. And some are comprehensive follow-up studies of actual patients so there is no reason why they shouldn't include people who have changed their minds. They were still people who were patients and had the procedures done. It doesn't even make sense that a follow-up study would exclude legitimate patents from such an inquiry. If say Kaiser Permanente is going to do long-term tracking of a patient population there is no reason why they would distort their results by excluding a certain category of people. Whether we are taking about heart patients, cancer patients, or transgender patients. But it also depends on what question is being asked and researched. Researchers do follow-up studies to examine all kinds of questions, not just the one you are asking.

You haven't provided any information about these supposed missing people. What kind of medical procedures they actually have and how old were they? What kind of medications they took? How they got them? Was it through a legitimate medical provider? Or on the black market? Or by flying to Thailand or Mexico?

And you haven't provided any estimates of what the correct numbers actually are. Is it 1.5% instead of 1%? Is it 6% instead of 5%?

And you haven't provided any sort of argument as to why any of this is relevant to the question of whether people should be free to make their own choices without interference from the government. Or any evidence that, the fact that some people regret their decisions and seek to reverse them, is information that is being hid from transgender patients.

All of this is your argument not mine. I'm not going to try and prove a negative.

There are always people who regret every single life choice. Every single one. But in a free society we tend to let people make their own mistakes and live with the consequences. That is what it means to live in a free society.

[Josh]

According to Ken, if a 13 year old girl regrets getting a cosmetic double mastectomy that’s just the consequences of “personal responsibility.”

Did I get that right?

[temporal1]

According to Ken, if a 13 year old girl regrets getting a cosmetic double mastectomy that’s just the consequences of
“personal responsibility.”

Did I get that right?

The part about, who cares about butchering children for profit? - “lawsuits will determine if we got it wrong” sticks in the craw.

[Soloist]

Ken as I said… you don’t get it. I posted that already and I showed with that media survey the issues.

For the record, you posted it and I’ll evaluate any research article you post if you actually can follow the logic.

[Ken]

According to Ken, if a 13 year old girl regrets getting a cosmetic double mastectomy that’s just the consequences of “personal responsibility.”

Did I get that right?

No, you got it wrong.

According to me it should be parents along with doctors who decide what kind of medical care is appropriate for their child, not the government. I think there should be a very high and consistent bar for the government to meet when it intervenes in private medical decisions. And it should do so in the least restrictive way possible when it does.

You, apparently, want to live in a world in which the government makes all the decisions for you with respect to how you raise your child.

And you are, in fact, very free with your opinions about how teens should, in fact, take responsibility for their own actions when it is say 13 year old Black boys who make the mistake of acting violently towards peers. You are willing to lock them up and throw away the key. Or 15 year old girls who get pregnant. You are very big on personal responsibility in those instances. But when a very small number of teens makes choices that affects no one else but themselves. And an even smaller number actually regret it. That is a national crisis of innocent victims?