Gender confusion

[Ken]

And now the primary point, what was the driver of this change? Research? What research? The nation changed standards of practice without any decent studies on clinical outcomes.

I very much doubt that is the case. A quick search of medical journals on PubMed reveals 12,219 results. Now I am not going to read 12,219 journal entries to try to judge whether there "aren't any decent studies on clinical outcomes" But this is a subject that has received a great deal of clinical attention from the medical community.

Sure it has. When did the policies start changing and when did the studies guiding that happen? You don’t need to read them, just answer when the policies started changing and based on what?
I’ll give you a hint, the research came after. The policies to provide care to children didn’t come based on research as those policies came before the research.

So you say. I expect that neither of us an expert in this area and aren't qualitied to actually comment intelligently. The fact of the matter is that (1) there has been a tremendous amount of clinical research in this area, (2) the actual numbers of children receiving clinical treatment is actually very low, and (3) the percentages who express dissatisfaction or regret is really quite low and not out of line with any other medical procedure. And there are frankly no medical procedures of any kind that have 100% satisfaction or success rates. We do know that the vast majority do not express regret or detransition.

Based on the information RZehr posted above, a child is currently 58-times more likely to die of COVID than get genital surgery. So it's not like they are going to the mall to try on new genitals during the latest holiday sale. Maybe we should be worrying more about COVID vaccine mandates for children if the safety of children is something we actually care about.

[Soloist]

So you say. I expect that neither of us an expert in this area and aren't qualitied to actually comment intelligently. The fact of the matter is that (1) there has been a tremendous amount of clinical research in this area, (2) the actual numbers of children receiving clinical treatment is actually very low, and (3) the percentages who express dissatisfaction or regret is really quite low and not out of line with any other medical procedure. And there are frankly no medical procedures of any kind that have 100% satisfaction or success rates. We do know that the vast majority do not express regret or detransition.

So… why are you arguing so strongly?
See the bolded in your post. You know it even if you don’t grasp the implications.

As for this

We do know that the vast majority do not express regret or detransition.

This is factually wrong and you are refusing to even look at the research filter. This is a point detransitioned and desisted have been talking about for quite some time on Reddit.

[Ken]

So you say. I expect that neither of us an expert in this area and aren't qualitied to actually comment intelligently. The fact of the matter is that (1) there has been a tremendous amount of clinical research in this area, (2) the actual numbers of children receiving clinical treatment is actually very low, and (3) the percentages who express dissatisfaction or regret is really quite low and not out of line with any other medical procedure. And there are frankly no medical procedures of any kind that have 100% satisfaction or success rates. We do know that the vast majority do not express regret or detransition.

So… why are you arguing so strongly?
See the bolded in your post. You know it even if you don’t grasp the implications.

As for this

We do know that the vast majority do not express regret or detransition.

This is factually wrong and you are refusing to even look at the research filter. This is a point detransitioned and desisted have been talking about for quite some time on Reddit.

The bolded part suggests that you are simply wrong when you asserted that many youth are being rushed into hormone therapy and surgery without gatekeeping. It sure looks like there is a lot of gatekeeping going on.

You are also wrong to claim that the majority of trans individuals do not express satisfaction. The Washington Post and Kaiser Family Foundation just completed the largest non-government poll ever completed on this topic. And they found that: https://www.washingtonpost.com/tablet/2 ... ns-survey/

Nearly 8 in 10 trans adults (78%) say that living as a gender different from the one assigned to them at birth has made them “more satisfied” with their life, including just under half (45%) who say they are “a lot more satisfied.”

This is not specifically about surgery, some might be living as opposite genders without any medical intervention. And some might be dissatisfied because hormonal or surgical interventions were not effective enough. But it certainly doesn't support the notion that large percentages regret their actions.

And seriously. Reddit? You can find reddit subforums like r/ExAmish and r/exmennonite where people post stories about the sex abuse, physical abuse, and psychological abuse they have experienced in those communities. Should we use reddit as a basis for evaluating the Amish and Mennonite church community? Or you can go to r/PastorArrested to find out all about the epidemic of abuse and grooming going on by pastors and youth pastors. Should we base our view of the church on that forum? If reddit is our guide then the world is a grim place indeed.

[Soloist]

Thank you for referencing a media survey rather then some science. Anyway, let’s evaluate it.

The survey was designed to reach a representative sample of adults in the U.S. who identify as transgender or as a trans adults along with a comparison representative of the general population of U.S. adults.

Looking only for people who identify. Okay… sure going to pick up someone who desisted or detransitioned.

Survey has 515 trans… big numbers there.

All online completes were reviewed to ensure respondents were giving the survey adequate attention. Any respondent with over 30% item non-response or with a length less than one quarter of the mean length by mode were flagged and reviewed. Four cases were removed from the data that failed both of these quality checks. Additionally, the trans sample was subject to additional data checks including reviewing responses to open-ended questions and gender identity questions. Fourteen cases were removed due to either the respondent not actually identifying as a trans adult or that the respondent was not responding truthfully

Very small sample size but if these were desisted or detransitioned, that would be close to 2%

Of the trans, only a 5th are satisfied with life roughly…
That’s a depressing survey… have you actually read it?
My point though is that it specifically weeded out people who do not identify as trans anymore.

Nobody would take a survey with under 1000 people with bad results for the vaccine as being accurate… why are you taking the survey as accurate with only 500 trans people?

This is not even a very well-made study…
It is impossible to evaluate satisfaction with life choices if you weed out those who would be dissatisfied.

[Ken]

Thank you for referencing a media survey rather then some science. Anyway, let’s evaluate it.

The survey was designed to reach a representative sample of adults in the U.S. who identify as transgender or as a trans adults along with a comparison representative of the general population of U.S. adults.

Looking only for people who identify. Okay… sure going to pick up someone who desisted or detransitioned.

Survey has 515 trans… big numbers there.

All online completes were reviewed to ensure respondents were giving the survey adequate attention. Any respondent with over 30% item non-response or with a length less than one quarter of the mean length by mode were flagged and reviewed. Four cases were removed from the data that failed both of these quality checks. Additionally, the trans sample was subject to additional data checks including reviewing responses to open-ended questions and gender identity questions. Fourteen cases were removed due to either the respondent not actually identifying as a trans adult or that the respondent was not responding truthfully

Very small sample size but if these were desisted or detransitioned, that would be close to 2%

Of the trans, only a 5th are satisfied with life roughly…
That’s a depressing survey… have you actually read it?
My point though is that it specifically weeded out people who do not identify as trans anymore.

Nobody would take a survey with under 1000 people with bad results for the vaccine as being accurate… why are you taking the survey as accurate with only 500 trans people?

This is not even a very well-made study…
It is impossible to evaluate satisfaction with life choices if you weed out those who would be dissatisfied.

And to support your point of view, you have [checks notes] some anonymous posters on reddit?

[ken_sylvania]

I expect that neither of us an expert in this area and aren't qualitied to actually comment intelligently.

So why do you comment if you don't believe you can do so intelligently????

[temporal1]

King Solomon asked God for wisdom and so can we!
https://www.watermark.org/blog/wisdom-ask

Americans are very independent people and most of us were raised to be that way from a very young age.
We are taught to be self-reliant, full of self-esteem and self-confidence. Somewhere along the way our self-awareness makes us realize that we cannot do it ourselves. Our own understanding leads us astray and the house of cards we’ve tried so carefully to build ourselves falls apart. All this time, God is waiting for us to come to Him for wisdom and guidance. He sees us fail and wants to share His wisdom with us, if only we’d ask. Yes, the God of the universe longs to have a relationship with YOU!

WISDOM: An understanding of truth that guides your actions

MEMORY VERSE: “Fear of the Lord is the foundation of true wisdom. All who obey His commandments will grow in wisdom. Praise Him forever!” PSALMS 111:10 (NLT)

This Week’s Finish Line: God is Happy to Give Us Wisdom when We Ask

When Solomon was a young man, his father David died and he became king and therefore responsible for all of the people of Israel.

In 1 Kings 3:3-15 we learn that one night God came to him in a dream and told him to ask for whatever he wanted.
Solomon, in humility, asked for the wisdom to govern God’s people because he knew he couldn’t do it alone.

Although we probably won’t talk to God in a dream, we can also seek wisdom from God and talk to Him through prayer.
James 1:5 says that we can ask our generous God for wisdom and it will be given to us. Just think about that. We can talk to the ultimate creator of the universe at any time, day or night, and He will hear us!

Family Questions:
What was Solomon’s attitude before God? Why was God pleased with Solomon’s request for wisdom?

Where are you tempted to search for wisdom apart from God?
When are you most tempted to lean on your own understanding (Proverbs 3:5-6) instead of God?

Where do you need wisdom right now in your life? Have you prayed about it? Stop and pray right now.

Read Hebrews 4:16.
Why can we approach the throne of grace with confidence? What did Christ do for us on the cross that makes this possible?

Bring It Home: 3 Activities to Illustrate Asking for Wisdom to Elementary Kids
1. Project 66
One of the ways we can learn about God’s wisdom is through His Word. This month we are challenging all elementary kids to memorize all 66 books of the Bible. This week work on memorizing all of the prophetical books from the Old Testament as a family. Check out this fun rap song by North Point Kids that your kids are hearing on Sundays to help them memorize all 66 books!

2. Family Prayer Time
Set aside some one-on-one time with each of your kids. Talk to them about one area of their life that they need wisdom in and pray for them. Be sure to follow up with them and ask them about it later in the week. Tell them something they can be praying for you about. Take time to come together as a family and pray for all of the requests at least once during the week.

3. Daily Proverbs
Learn about asking God for wisdom from the wisest man who ever lived. Begin by reading a few proverbs each day with your kids at breakfast, on the way to school or at bed time. Talk about what they mean and how they apply to your life and your child’s life.

Prayer: Proverbs 3:5-6
Thank God always being willing to hear our prayers. Ask Him to help you when you’re tempted to lean on your own understanding instead of His. Pray for a specific area of your life that you need wisdom for this week.

Forum Home Page:

Current Events
Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.

[Ken]

I expect that neither of us an expert in this area and aren't qualitied to actually comment intelligently.

So why do you comment if you don't believe you can do so intelligently????

Because my comments and opinions are not premised on any of the medical issues related to this topic. I'm not making a medical argument. They are premised on general principles of freedom, parental rights, and medical autonomy. Principles that most people here would leap up to defend if it were any other subject at all. And even so, all the published numbers support the position I have taken. All of them. Soloists comments are not premised on any medical information either. He can't point to any actual published medical studies to support his opinions despite the fact that there are tens of thousands of published medical articles on the subject. There are endless medical journal articles on every aspect of transgender care and more coming out every day. Instead he asks us to ignore all of that and base our opinions on anonymous anecdotal reddit postings. When this issue doesn't hinge on medicine anyway. It is a it hinges on basic rights.

Just like the issue of vaccinations. As I recall, Soloist was adamantly opposed to COVID vaccinations. Not for any medical reasons but for personal reasons of faith. So his decision to get vaccinated or not was not premised on any medical information related to the the risk of COVID, the efficacy of the vaccine, or potential side effects of the vaccine. Those issues were entirely irrelevant. He believed that he was entitled to freedom and medical autonomy regardless of any issues or studies or data related to COVID or the vaccines. And he was right. The courts and government agreed. So it would have been pointless to endlessly belabor information about COVID and vaccine efficacy. That was all beside the point. That is all that trans people are asking. They and their parents are asking for the same space to make their own personal and medical decisions without the intrusion of the government. Which seems a very basic American principle. And if they make mistakes? Well, they are entitled to do that as well and live with the consequences like we all do in every walk of life.

[Soloist]

Because my comments and opinions are not premised on any of the medical issues related to this topic. I'm not making a medical argument. They are premised on general principles of freedom, parental rights, and medical autonomy.

I see, when I point out how the study itself eliminates people who would be dissatisfied, rather then respond to the point, you mock it. The very foundation of medicine is shattered if we remove negative outcomes, but that runs counter to popular belief so you resort to cheap shots.

Principles that most people here would leap up to defend if it were any other subject at all. And even so, all the published numbers support the position I have taken. All of them. Soloists comments are not premised on any medical information either. He can't point to any actual published medical studies to support his opinions despite the fact that there are tens of thousands of published medical articles on the subject.

It is. It’s called study design which both of us are qualified to discuss but I’m right and you have no factual basis to argue.

There are endless medical journal articles on every aspect of transgender care and more coming out every day. Instead he asks us to ignore all of that and base our opinions on anonymous anecdotal reddit postings. When this issue doesn't hinge on medicine anyway. It is a it hinges on basic rights

I’m pointing out a group with terrible outcomes that is being ignored. The studies confirm that they are being ignored as this one you posted.

Just like the issue of vaccinations. As I recall, Soloist was adamantly opposed to COVID vaccinations. Not for any medical reasons but for personal reasons of faith. So his decision to get vaccinated or not was not premised on any medical information related to the the risk of COVID, the efficacy of the vaccine, or potential side effects of the vaccine. Those issues were entirely irrelevant.

Yes it was faith based. But you cannot argue with the facts behind the argument. My data came from medical studies and several research articles.

That is all that trans people are asking. They and their parents are asking for the same space to make their own personal and medical decisions without the intrusion of the government. Which seems a very basic American principle. And if they make mistakes? Well, they are entitled to do that as well and live with the consequences like we all do in every walk of life.

I am not forbidding this in the slightest. What you seem insistent on refusing to admit is that the studies (to carry the vaccine analogy) are removing any negative outcomes that make these people advocate against the vaccine.
You want people to be ignorant of consequences? Or would you rather they actually know real data that doesn’t hide the truth before they choose.
This is about hiding painful facts from vulnerable people.

[temporal1]

.. I am not forbidding this in the slightest.
What you seem insistent on refusing to admit is that the studies (to carry the vaccine analogy) are removing any negative outcomes that make these people advocate against the vaccine.

You want people to be ignorant of consequences?
Or would you rather they actually know real data that doesn’t hide the truth before they choose.

This is about hiding painful facts from vulnerable people.

deliberately, methodically, strategically hiding balanced facts.
that’s propaganda.

.. without the intrusion of the government.

ahh. here it is.
o.government is very much wanted!! - $$$$
full access to the Public Treasury, legal protections, complimentary promotion in education and health care .. with zero accountability.

cosmetic surgeries, elective surgeries, are not paid by insurance companies or taxpayers.

the path to obtain many physically life-threatening treatments, medications and surgeries, for instance, for cancer (as Josh has mentioned) - was never a slam-dunk, for any age. insulin was cost-prohibitive (until the Trump years).

there are no words sufficient to describe the grave wrongs involved - on this, human reasoning has surpassed itself in evil.

eyes wide open as to what is now standard-issue in government schools, and healthcare, emitting top-down from the White House. there is no hand-waving away. this is no off-beat extremist madness. it’s no crank or troll on some random internet forum. this evil ideology is what “everyone’s children” are presented with, force-fed, without means of escape.
AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE.

government “intrusion” is not only wanted, it’s demanded. accountability is unwanted.

the handwriting is on the wall. it has been for decades. this is so serious, more are refusing to continue to deny it.