Gender confusion

[Ken]

Wait. To be clear, are surgeries and hormone therapies being performed on minors in the U.S. or aren't they? Last time this issue rolled around you told us it wasn't, that it was silly to suggest as much and you made a lot of hay out of your misreading Josh and thinking he suggested that surgeries were being performed in schools.

Now you want my "clear and consistent principles" on the issue which would seem to suggest that you tacitly acknowledge that surgeries and therapies ARE being performed on minors but how dare I object to them because: privacy, parental rights, and freedom.

So which is it; are they not happening and I'm a silly fear-monger or are they happening and I'm a bigot and too stupid to see that protecting the rights of children to chemically and surgically castrate themselves is a blessing of modern liberalism and a potential safeguard against the encroachments of a future, even more progressive state/society that may be inclined to take my children from me because I might not be "safe"?

As I recall, that long ago discussion was about full sexual reassignment surgery. According to Reuters, these are the numbers: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/sp ... outh-data/



And how many of those come to regret it? From ABC: https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory ... g-97640151

Some studies suggest that rates of regret have declined over the years as patient selection and treatment methods have improved. In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said.

So we are talking about in the neighborhood of 2-3 children per year. Who are not dead mind you. They simply regret or are dissatisfied with a decision that they, themselves made. And apparently FOX news found one of them. That is the scope of the issue we are talking about. Is that a big issue? I don't know. You tell me. For the same of comparison, what is the percentage of patients who regret or are dissatisfied with say, hip replacement surgery? Do you think it is higher or lower? Do we need to ban hip replacement surgery if there are a percentage of patients who are unsatisfied with the artificial surgical replacement for the hip that God gave them?

So, an estimated 2-3 children per year regret a decision they made. How does that compare to the number of children killed per year by firearms which is about 4,300? Or the number killed in car crashes which is about 4,000 per year? Or the number killed or injured from farm accidents on family farms? That number is about 300 killed and about 27,000 injured per year at a cost of over $1.5 billion according to the department of labor. Or the number of children killed each year due to neglect and child abuse? That number is an average of 1,840.

So your turn. Under what sort of general standards or principles do you think this issue requires heavy-handed government intervention?

[Soloist]

As I recall, that long ago discussion was about full sexual reassignment surgery. According to Reuters, these are the numbers: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/sp ... outh-data/

Perhaps that was what you were discussing.
Even the rates of adult transgenders that go through full reassignment sexual surgery are low. For that matter, how many surgeries constitute full to you? You do know some of them actually go through more then 20 surgeries.
Generally more men then women go through bottom surgery which is what you really are thinking of.

And how many of those come to regret it? From ABC: https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory ... g-97640151

Some studies suggest that rates of regret have declined over the years as patient selection and treatment methods have improved. In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said.

So we are talking about in the neighborhood of 2-3 children per year. Who are not dead mind you. They simply regret or are dissatisfied with a decision that they, themselves made. And apparently FOX news found one of them. That is the scope of the issue we are talking about. Is that a big issue? I don't know. You tell me.

I have specifically addressed the study in prior posts. They eliminated people who no longer identify as transgender and don’t follow long enough. There is a quite active Reddit group on this ya know. You could actually read the thoughts they have.

For the same of comparison, what is the percentage of patients who regret or are dissatisfied with say, hip replacement surgery? Do you think it is higher or lower? Do we need to ban hip replacement surgery if there are a percentage of patients who are unsatisfied with the artificial surgical replacement for the hip that God gave them?

Apples and oranges. We don’t take out legs just because someone is dissatisfied with it. We would say they have mental health problems.

So, an estimated 2-3 children per year regret a decision they made. How does that compare to the number of children killed per year by firearms which is about 4,300? Or the number killed in car crashes which is about 4,000 per year? Or the number killed or injured from farm accidents on family farms? That number is about 300 killed and about 27,000 injured per year at a cost of over $1.5 billion according to the department of labor. Or the number of children killed each year due to neglect and child abuse? That number is an average of 1,840.

To compare it properly, only follow gun purchases and death for 4 years. Apply the same logic.

[Ken]

As I recall, that long ago discussion was about full sexual reassignment surgery. According to Reuters, these are the numbers: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/sp ... outh-data/

Perhaps that was what you were discussing.
Even the rates of adult transgenders that go through full reassignment sexual surgery are low. For that matter, how many surgeries constitute full to you? You do know some of them actually go through more then 20 surgeries.
Generally more men then women go through bottom surgery which is what you really are thinking of.

And how many of those come to regret it? From ABC: https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory ... g-97640151

Some studies suggest that rates of regret have declined over the years as patient selection and treatment methods have improved. In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said.

So we are talking about in the neighborhood of 2-3 children per year. Who are not dead mind you. They simply regret or are dissatisfied with a decision that they, themselves made. And apparently FOX news found one of them. That is the scope of the issue we are talking about. Is that a big issue? I don't know. You tell me.

I have specifically addressed the study in prior posts. They eliminated people who no longer identify as transgender and don’t follow long enough. There is a quite active Reddit group on this ya know. You could actually read the thoughts they have.

For the same of comparison, what is the percentage of patients who regret or are dissatisfied with say, hip replacement surgery? Do you think it is higher or lower? Do we need to ban hip replacement surgery if there are a percentage of patients who are unsatisfied with the artificial surgical replacement for the hip that God gave them?

Apples and oranges. We don’t take out legs just because someone is dissatisfied with it. We would say they have mental health problems.

So, an estimated 2-3 children per year regret a decision they made. How does that compare to the number of children killed per year by firearms which is about 4,300? Or the number killed in car crashes which is about 4,000 per year? Or the number killed or injured from farm accidents on family farms? That number is about 300 killed and about 27,000 injured per year at a cost of over $1.5 billion according to the department of labor. Or the number of children killed each year due to neglect and child abuse? That number is an average of 1,840.

To compare it properly, only follow gun purchases and death for 4 years. Apply the same logic.

You are missing my point. People who support transgender rights claim that those who oppose them or who advocate government action to restrict LGBT rights are hypocrites and motivated by bigotry.

The correct answer to such accusations to say: No, we are not hypocrites. "These are our clear and general principles for: (1) When the government should curtail freedom to improve safety, (2) intervene in parental decisions and overrule parental rights, and (3) when the government should intervene in private medical decisions that do pose a wider public health or safety issue.

If you can do that. And based on those principles you can make a compelling reason for government action in this area then fine. Because the presumption in this country under our constitution is that we err on the side of personal freedom. So you have a fairly high burden to meet.

As for the numbers. The aren't my numbers. I didn't do the study. And if they are off by a factor of 2 or even a factor of 4 it doesn't really matter. Or is there some numerical threshold for action that you have in mind? Assume those numbers are off by a factor of 5. Now we are up to 10 kids/year who regret their decision. Is 10 your threshold for action? If so then what should we do about say COVID deaths by children under age 18. According to the CDC there have been 1460 children under the age of 18 who have died of COVID in the past 2 years. Or about 730 per year. If 10 is your threshold for government action that overrules personal freedom, parental rights, and medical privacy and autonomy then we should most certainly see government intervention to mandate universal COVID vaccination for children.

[Josh]

Hey Ken,

Do you really think it's OK to do a double mastectomy for cosmetic reasons to a 13 year old?

At what age would it not be OK? 12? 11? 10? 2?

Should parents get sex reassignment surgery for 6 year olds? 4? 2?

[Sliceitup]

I’d be very interested in knowing what percentage of gender surgeries done on pediatric patients are done at the request of the parent to normalize an intersex child. I suspect that is far more frequent than those done for trans children. If anyone knows where I could find data on that I’m all ears.

[Soloist]

I’d be very interested in knowing what percentage of gender surgeries done on pediatric patients are done at the request of the parent to normalize an intersex child. I suspect that is far more frequent than those done for trans children. If anyone knows where I could find data on that I’m all ears.

Generally that would have done at birth and I would suspect you might be right but the pendulum is swinging the other way. Now days they are advocating to wait for the baby to decide later in life.
I haven’t seen any data, mostly just medical commentary addressing something else and mentioning it.

[Josh]

I’d be very interested in knowing what percentage of gender surgeries done on pediatric patients are done at the request of the parent to normalize an intersex child. I suspect that is far more frequent than those done for trans children. If anyone knows where I could find data on that I’m all ears.

This used to be common, but is now rarely done and is considered not to be acceptable due to the many problems of performing a "sex change" surgery on a child who ends up growing up with a gender identity that matches their chromosomes or their hormones instead of whatever the "sex change" tried to change them to.

Sliceitup, you seem to act like you are some kind of "expert" on "intersex" people (a term that zero of the CAIS or other such people I have personally known have accepted for themselves). Why are you so obsessed with this?

[ohio jones]

So we are talking about in the neighborhood of 2-3 children per year. Who are not dead mind you. They simply regret or are dissatisfied with a decision that they, themselves made.

So it actually is happening, but it doesn't matter. I have some questions.
1. How many who undergo sexual reassignment surgery commit suicide because they regret or are dissatisfied with the results? They most certainly are dead. "Simply regret or are dissatisfied" seems an understatement severely lacking in empathy.
2. Should children age 13-17 (or younger) be empowered to make decisions of such permanent significance, when they are restricted on the basis of age from making other decisions or engaging in other activities that are far less consequential?
3. How many actually make these decisions themselves, without pressure from counselors, peers, groomers, or other influence?

[Ken]

Hey Ken,

Do you really think it's OK to do a double mastectomy for cosmetic reasons to a 13 year old?

At what age would it not be OK? 12? 11? 10? 2?

Should parents get sex reassignment surgery for 6 year olds? 4? 2?

It isn't whether I think it is OK or not OK. I can have my opinion. You can have your opinion. The relevant question is whether this is an issue that the government should involve itself in. I have a high threshold test for government intervention into issues of personal freedom, parental rights, and medical privacy/autonomy. And I would hope you do too.

So my actual answer is no, this isn't something I would want to see for my own children. But I'm not convinced this is a severe enough public health issue to merit government intervention by state legislators, especially if there are less restrictive approaches that do not infringe so much on parental rights, personal freedom, and medical autonomy.

Less restrictive alternatives would be things like increased psychological evaluations required before surgical alternatives are employed, increased waiting times, examination of the current standards of care, and so forth. And these issues are more appropriately addressed within the medical community than by state legislators acting due to prejudice or public opinion. And how to we get there? If surgeons and psychologists are held liable and subject to medical malpractice suits for making mistakes and pushing medical interventions when they are not appropriate then the profession will certainly slow down and become more cautious. So people who feel victimized by psychologists and surgeons should sue and make their case in court that they were given improper treatment. That is how things change.

[RZehr]

I’d be very interested in knowing what percentage of gender surgeries done on pediatric patients are done at the request of the parent to normalize an intersex child. I suspect that is far more frequent than those done for trans children. If anyone knows where I could find data on that I’m all ears.

I’m all for parents making surgical decisions for their children in order to correct real physical deformities. Such as a hair lip. It is correcting a deformity. I wouldn’t support a requirement that says a child must wait until 18 and then make their own decision for surgery.
Nor would I, support a parents right to take their young child create a deformity by slicing the child’s face open to give them a cleft lip. That is perverse. It is literally perverting: “to turn to an improper use; misapply: to misconstrue or misinterpret, especially deliberately; distort; to bring to a less excellent state; vitiate; debase; to change to what is unnatural or abnormal”.

And to compare transsexuality to intersex is ridiculous.