Lititz Springs Park

[Szdfan]

Like I responded to Josh, Islam is not generally considered a pagan religion.

As Christians, most of us would believe that Islam is a false religion that does not save, and would not quibble about the definition of “pagan”.

Only faith and belief in Jesus can save. All other religions are false. We are very comfortable calling false faiths pagan or heathen.

A religion can be false without being pagan. Words do actually mean things and your overheated, sloppy rhetoric emits more heat than light.

Perhaps this is the moment to point out that LGBTQ is not a religion, even if you believe it's wrong. You're discrediting your own argument by calling it paganism.

[Szdfan]

(Rolls eyes). Islam isn't a pagan religion. Paganism refers to polytheistic, ethnic religions that pre-dated Christianity or the modern iterations that interpret and draw from those religions. The word "pagan" comes from the Latin pāgānus which meant "rural" or "rustic." Paganism has often had the connotations of bring the religion of peasants.

Most modern pagan religions are pantheistic, panentheistic, polytheistic, or animistic.

Islam isn't that. It's an Abrahamic, monotheistic, major religion that includes multiple ethnicities and races in it's demographic.

So yes, with the rise of the Ottoman Empire, multiple Christian sites throughout the Middle East and far eastern Europe were converted to mosques. But Islam is generally not considered to be pagan.

An alternative view is that Islam is indeed a pagan religion, starting with, for example, its rather odd practice of worshipping the moon (and using it as a symbol all over the place, despite claiming to be against “idols”).

Islam doesn't worship the moon. The Koran prohibits moon worship. It's a symbol that represents God's guidance on the path of life. This symbol comes from the practice of traveling along desert trade routes at night (because of the daytime heat) and using the stars and moon to navigate.

This is a bit like saying that every Christmas, Christians worship trees. We don't, of course, it's a symbol for something else and part of tradition.

But if you're so concerned about paganism in worship, allow me to introduce you to some Christian saints, whose veneration and role in the church do have links to pre-Christian religion. Do you think that Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are pagan?

[RZehr]

Like I responded to Josh, Islam is not generally considered a pagan religion.

As Christians, most of us would believe that Islam is a false religion that does not save, and would not quibble about the definition of “pagan”.

Only faith and belief in Jesus can save. All other religions are false. We are very comfortable calling false faiths pagan or heathen.

A religion can be false without being pagan. Words do actually mean things and your overheated, sloppy rhetoric emits more heat than light.

Perhaps this is the moment to point out that LGBTQ is not a religion, even if you believe it's wrong. You're discrediting your own argument by calling it paganism.

Words have meaning? What is a woman?

[Szdfan]

As Christians, most of us would believe that Islam is a false religion that does not save, and would not quibble about the definition of “pagan”.

Only faith and belief in Jesus can save. All other religions are false. We are very comfortable calling false faiths pagan or heathen.

A religion can be false without being pagan. Words do actually mean things and your overheated, sloppy rhetoric emits more heat than light.

Perhaps this is the moment to point out that LGBTQ is not a religion, even if you believe it's wrong. You're discrediting your own argument by calling it paganism.

Words have meaning? What is a woman?

The definition of which is a cultural and political flashpoint at the moment. There's a lot about transgender and body disphora that I don't understand and I don't feel equipped to get into the weeds about. I don't believe I have ever argued that "transwomen are women."

I do think that the trans population is incredibly vulnerable and that they are currently being targeted as the low hanging fruit in a push against LGBTQ people in general. It's pretty amazing that "small government" conservatives have no problem using government to dictate to schools what they are allowed to teach and to doctors what medical procedures they're allowed to do.

[steve-in-kville]

Words have meaning? What is a woman?

I'm having issues with attaching images today. Not sure what's up....

[RZehr]

A religion can be false without being pagan. Words do actually mean things and your overheated, sloppy rhetoric emits more heat than light.

Perhaps this is the moment to point out that LGBTQ is not a religion, even if you believe it's wrong. You're discrediting your own argument by calling it paganism.

Words have meaning? What is a woman?

The definition of which is a cultural and political flashpoint at the moment. There's a lot about transgender and body disphora that I don't understand and I don't feel equipped to get into the weeds about. I don't believe I have ever argued that "transwomen are women."

I do think that the trans population is incredibly vulnerable and that they are currently being targeted as the low hanging fruit in a push against LGBTQ people in general. It's pretty amazing that "small government" conservatives have no problem using government to dictate to schools what they are allowed to teach and to doctors what medical procedures they're allowed to do.

Lol. How about:

Words do actually mean things and your overheated, sloppy rhetoric emits more heat than light.

But let’s be strict about what a pagan is, shall we.

[Szdfan]

Words have meaning? What is a woman?

The definition of which is a cultural and political flashpoint at the moment. There's a lot about transgender and body disphora that I don't understand and I don't feel equipped to get into the weeds about. I don't believe I have ever argued that "transwomen are women."

I do think that the trans population is incredibly vulnerable and that they are currently being targeted as the low hanging fruit in a push against LGBTQ people in general. It's pretty amazing that "small government" conservatives have no problem using government to dictate to schools what they are allowed to teach and to doctors what medical procedures they're allowed to do.

Lol. How about:

Words do actually mean things and your overheated, sloppy rhetoric emits more heat than light.

But let’s be strict about what a pagan is, shall we.

When there's a massive controversy over the meaning of "pagan," I'll be willing to reconsider. Words do change meaning. Josh is just throwing rhetorical bombs by comparing a pride celebration to pagan worship.

If the church doesn't want to provide space for the pride celebration, that's their right. I also think the situation demonstrates some organizational problems between the park board and the church. There seems to have been a lack of communication through all of this.

I do think that trans people are being targeted as part of a concentrated campaign to roll back LGBTQ rights. I do believe trans people deserve to be treated with respect even if I don't understand them. I don't see a lot of respect for them on this forum. I see them being demonized for political purposes.

[Josh]

But if you're so concerned about paganism in worship, allow me to introduce you to some Christian saints, whose veneration and role in the church do have links to pre-Christian religion. Do you think that Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are pagan?

Our Anabaptist forefathers separated from the other churches for multiple reasons, but a big one was veneration of icons and what they felt was idolatry. I will plead the fifth on making any further comments about Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy, but I will say that pagan worship practices have found their way into many otherwise Christian circles.

[Josh]

A religion can be false without being pagan. Words do actually mean things and your overheated, sloppy rhetoric emits more heat than light.

Perhaps this is the moment to point out that LGBTQ is not a religion, even if you believe it's wrong. You're discrediting your own argument by calling it paganism.

Szdfan,

Drag shows conducted in front of children and "gay pride" marches certainly are forms of pagan idolatry and worship of satanic, heathen practices that Christians are forbidden to do.

Do you think gay pride "celebrations" are wholesome and family friendly? I don't think seeing nearly-naked men in full bondage gear is "family friendly" and I also don't think it's something Christians should tolerate. I certainly don't want it happening on my own church's property.

Nor do I want to have a "celebration" of a man cross dressing (drag queens aren't even trans; they're just men who enjoy cross dressing for show) is something that needs to be happening on front of children. These events are highly sexualised, and in more sane times, they were "adults only".

So yes, all of this is indeed pagan rituals. It is a worship of "pride", a deadly sin. It is a celebration of lust, concupiscence, homosexuality, effeminacy, and fornication. These forms of worship are nearly exactly like the descriptions of things like the ancient Canaanite temples, where cross-dressing, temple prostitution, and all manner of fornication (whether same sex or opposite sex) was the order of the day. God's people were commanded not to go to such temples or engage in such things. And in the Old Testament, they were also ordered to utterly slay every single one of these peoples - leaving no man, woman, or child alive, and not to even touch the spoils like gold and silver left over. That is how seriously God views this kind of sin.

[ken_sylvania]

I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to be argumentative.

I'm not aware of a time in the early history of the church where churches were turned into pagan temples or places of worship. Most of the churches in early Christian period were house churches or shrines outside the borders of a city.

In case anyone is interested, there's a Wikipedia article on the Christianization of pagan sites. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianized_sites

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversio ... to_mosques

Like I responded to Josh, Islam is not generally considered a pagan religion.

Fair enough. Let me rephrase - I imagine the property of Christians was confiscated before the temples of a false religion were built on it, rather than Christians being coerced into allowing such temples to be built on property they owned.