Progressive Conservative Mennonite Churches

[Grace]

According to this page, Churchtown is still Lancaster Conference, and in the Martindale district.

https://www.lancasterconference.org/wp- ... Bishop.pdf

That page has no date, and I strongly suspect is not current.

Yes it probably is outdated. But Daryl Weaver is still the Bishop of the Martindale District.

[Grace]

Depending who would read this, they might think we are speaking in code.....LMC, AMEC, CMC, ACC, G&T, BMA.

I guess it isn't any worse, than the nicknames for some groups. The Jo-Wengers, the Hornings, the Pikers, the 35ers, the Easterners, the Mid- Atlantics, Beachy Amish, the Mose Stoltzfus church, Hope Fellowship, Pilgrim, etc.

[HondurasKeiser]

I asked some people in a "conference" type of church when their conference was, and they responded they weren't aware of a gathering such as would be called a conference. "The conference" to them simply meant "all of our bishops".

Likewise, when I was part of a non-conference Beachy church we held "conference" to which all of us went, plus many other interested people. I would note that the Nationwide conference was careful to not call itself such a thing, instead calling itself "Bible fellowship meetings".

My own church doesn't think of itself as having a "conference structure" but does have a General Conference, even though we are neither General Conference Mennonites and we are not part of the old Mennonite Church General Conference either. Nowadays, people say "the conference" to mean "all of the membership", such as "that new style of sweater is spreading to the entire conference".

I have been genuinely curious now for a while, and perhaps you’ve written it about it elsewhere and I missed, but just how many different church groups have you been a part of. You just mentioned Beachy Amish but off the top of my head you’ve also been in an MCUSA church, a CMC church, a mega church and now a Holdeman church. What is you faith journey exactly and why has it taken you to so many different flavors of Anabaptism?

[Josh]

I asked some people in a "conference" type of church when their conference was, and they responded they weren't aware of a gathering such as would be called a conference. "The conference" to them simply meant "all of our bishops".

Likewise, when I was part of a non-conference Beachy church we held "conference" to which all of us went, plus many other interested people. I would note that the Nationwide conference was careful to not call itself such a thing, instead calling itself "Bible fellowship meetings".

My own church doesn't think of itself as having a "conference structure" but does have a General Conference, even though we are neither General Conference Mennonites and we are not part of the old Mennonite Church General Conference either. Nowadays, people say "the conference" to mean "all of the membership", such as "that new style of sweater is spreading to the entire conference".

I have been genuinely curious now for a while, and perhaps you’ve written it about it elsewhere and I missed, but just how many different church groups have you been a part of. You just mentioned Beachy Amish but off the top of my head you’ve also been in an MCUSA church, a CMC church, a mega church and now a Holdeman church. What is you faith journey exactly and why has it taken you to so many different flavors of Anabaptism?

My family has no Anabaptist background at all, but just happens to be from an area that is now thick with plain people. (It was not when my parents were young; the Amish and Mennonite populations were much smaller back then.) As a young child, my family went to a charismatic-Pentecostal church. When they moved back to America my parents transitioned to non-organised, home-based "prayer meeting" type of fellowships.

In 2003 I was exposed to some ex-Piker people (I think) when I lived near the Finger Lakes, NY region. They were forming some kind of Charity group. I had no idea what they were and considered them bizarre. I asked them why they spoke a strange language to their children, and they said, "So they can talk to their cousins". I asked them why they had a Bible study/prayer meeting with men on separate sides and sang acapella, and they said, "We don't want to offend our parents," and told me they were planning to learn to play instruments in worship soon. All in all I considered them very odd people. They said they weren't Mennonites, but the other people in town all said they were Mennonites. I shrugged and went on with my life. (A non-Anabaptist person invited me to their services and Bible studies and I would go there every Wednesday night.)

Group exposed to: Charity / Denny Kenaston / ex-Old Order Mennonites

In 2005, I moved to, unbeknownst to me, a historic Mennonite town. My exposure was mostly that the Beachys would sing carols door to door. People told me they were Amish and I assumed they were. Back then, occasionally a buggy would still be seen in town. (The last Amish service was in 2007.) Eventually I put down roots there, established a business, and my brother and my business associated both played worship at a then-MC USA, now-FEC church. I started attending there too. But my experience was just of a "standard" evangelical kind of service, but with a whiff of an ethnic flavour. It reminded me of being around Greeks or Croats. I actually attended there enough to ask to be a member (which was a simple formality) and contributed to their various social causes as it aligned with my personal moral/ethical values at the time, even though I did not live like a believer and was not one. (Nowadays that congregation would have much higher expectations on me to make a profession of faith).

Group exposed to: Ohio Mennonite Conference, "conservative" MC USA

In 2014 I became actually born again and felt a conviction to go to a "conservative" church, and I lived 2 miles from a church that said "Conservative Mennonite Church". So off I went. That turned out to be a Midwest Fellowship Amish-Mennonite church. I nearly became a member there. People who left that church and formed a new church that caucuses with Pilgrim and Hope invited me to their youth gatherings and ministries and evangelistic outreaches. I was spiritually refreshed and encouraged and built-up by the time I spent with that type of people. I also got to know the people who'd left that church for a CMC type of church.

Group exposed to: moderate-conservative Amish-Mennonites, Midwest Fellowship
intermediate-conservative mennonites, Pilgrim Mennonite Conference & Hope Mennonite Fellowship
theological-conservative Amish-Mennonites, Rosedale Network of Churches

The next year in 2015 I moved to Australia and looked for the nearest Anabaptist church and ended up at a Beachy mission. I continued my membership process there. The other Anabaptists in mainland Australia were a Nationwide mission.

Group exposed to: Beachy Amish-Mennonites, Beachy missions
ultra-conservative Mennonites, Nationwide Fellowship of Churches missions

I moved back to America right around the time of AIC in 2016. (The membership process moves slowly.) I got fed up with a number of very serious problems at my church and quit the plain / conservative thing for a while and attended a CMC church. I also spent a lot of time with Apostolic Pentecostals and dated a girl who went to that sort of church. Eventually I felt convicted to live a plain lifestyle instead of the rather worldly lifestyle I had slid in to, and started seeking. There are many churches around where I am. A pastor from a Keystone type of church invited me to spend time with them and I did and was very blessed, but the Lord closed the doors for me to move to that community in PA. I ended up attending regularly with the Holdemans. A dear, dear friend who is a German Baptist also invited me to some services and I hopped in the car and drove 3 hours there and greatly enjoyed several visits.

Groups exposed to: Church of God in Christ (Holdeman Mennonites)
fundamental-conservative Mennonites, Keystone Fellowship & BMA
moderate-conservative Brethren, Old German Baptist Brethren (New Conference)

In 2017 I felt called to stay with the Holdemans and started a new job that involved a lot of travel. Wow! Wherever I travelled to, I looked for a church. If Holdemans weren't nearby I'd look for another one. I ended up spending time with people from all these groups - staying in their homes, singing with them at nursing homes, visiting youth activities, and attending worship services:

Groups exposed to: Lobelville-type church, Believers in Christ
Hutterite Christian Communities, Rocky Cape/Detention River, Elmendorf, and Altona colonies
Old Order Amish
fundamental-conservative Mennonites, plain CMC (now Rosedale), Catlett VA and Bellefonte OH, also BMA
Beachy Amish-Mennonites, intentional/conservative community in Bastrop TX
"Start up" Hutterite community in Vienna, Austria
Independent conservative Mennonite church in Washington, DC
... many more I may have forgotten ...

As time goes on, I find I spend most of my time with my own church group and less and less with those from other types of churches. My wife does not enjoy mixing with other church groups as much as I do.

On the other hand, my life got a lot more interesting when my brother answered the Lord's call and ended up becoming a member at my old Mid-West Fellowship church, and my nephew did too, and married a girl from a former CMC church who felt the Lord's call to live a plain lifestyle. Now they are all plain people and members at that church, but they seem to be moving in a much more radical / intentional direction and are exploring horse and buggy groups such as the Hoover Mennonites. Perhaps someday, I won't be able to reach them via telephone anymore.

[Josh]

Whoops, I forgot the "mega church"... my family in Australia used to go to Hillsong. When I would visit with them\] back in 2015, I would attend church with them some of the time. (Hillsong used to have Friday and Saturday services, which made this a bit easier.)

Double whoops - I forgot about the Apostolic Christian Church groups I also visited, both plain and non-plain groups here in Ohio, and plain Nazarean groups in Ohio and in Australia. In 2018 my Beachy mission church in Australia disbanded, so when on business trips in Australia, I would attend the Nazarean church.

My brother in Australia attends an Apostolic - Nazarean church in Australia now. The rest of his family stopped going to Hillsong. His one son who moved here is my nephew who is now a member at a conservative Amish-Mennonite church.

Strange how life works out at times.

[HondurasKeiser]

You have had quite a bit of exposure to the Anabaptista world. Thank you for sharing all that.

[Ernie]

I heard yesterday that in at least some BMA churches, ordained persons are being asked what their doctrinal position is on Eternal Conscious Torment vs. Conditional Immortality. If an ordained person makes any room for CI, his credentials are withdrawn. Even if he believes in ETC, but acknowledges that there are some verses that could use further discussion, his credentials are withdrawn. He is required to state that the New Testament only teaches ETC and that the NT does not make any room for CI.

Is what I heard correct? And is this test being applied to all BMA pastors, or is this regional?

[Grace]

I heard yesterday that in at least some BMA churches, ordained persons are being asked what their doctrinal position is on Eternal Conscious Torment vs. Conditional Immortality. If an ordained person makes any room for CI, his credentials are withdrawn. Even if he believes in ETC, but acknowledges that there are some verses that could use further discussion, his credentials are withdrawn. He is required to state that the New Testament only teaches ETC and that the NT does not make any room for CI.

Is what I heard correct? And is this test being applied to all BMA pastors, or is this regional?

I do not know the answer to your question. However if it is true, I find it sad that this issue would divide people whose common goal is to follow Christ. Whether the eternal destiny of those who go down in an unrepentant sinner’s grave will be annihilated or whether they will be in an eternal conscious state enduring torment, both ends are a fate that should be feared by all.

We need to focus on the gospel of Jesus Christ through the Bible, and not on which understanding of hell is correct. We need to focus on following the Lord, being taught the scriptures, and how to flesh that out in our daily lives.

[joshuabgood]

I heard yesterday that in at least some BMA churches, ordained persons are being asked what their doctrinal position is on Eternal Conscious Torment vs. Conditional Immortality. If an ordained person makes any room for CI, his credentials are withdrawn. Even if he believes in ETC, but acknowledges that there are some verses that could use further discussion, his credentials are withdrawn. He is required to state that the New Testament only teaches ETC and that the NT does not make any room for CI.

Is what I heard correct? And is this test being applied to all BMA pastors, or is this regional?

Yes. Basically. You must take a hard stand against CI. It is labeled specifically false teaching and heresy by formal BMA missives. The question of credentialing is nebulous in the BMA, so that is a bit unclear, however, they did ask a minister to resign, which he did.

[Ken]

I heard yesterday that in at least some BMA churches, ordained persons are being asked what their doctrinal position is on Eternal Conscious Torment vs. Conditional Immortality. If an ordained person makes any room for CI, his credentials are withdrawn. Even if he believes in ETC, but acknowledges that there are some verses that could use further discussion, his credentials are withdrawn. He is required to state that the New Testament only teaches ETC and that the NT does not make any room for CI.

Is what I heard correct? And is this test being applied to all BMA pastors, or is this regional?

Yes. Basically. You must take a hard stand against CI. It is labeled specifically false teaching and heresy by formal BMA missives. The question of credentialing is nebulous in the BMA, so that is a bit unclear, however, they did ask a minister to resign, which he did.

Why is this such a lightning-rod issue?

I mean none of us are really going to know the actual answer until the time comes anyway. How does this affect how anyone lives their life among the living? And honestly, how often is it even going to come up in church sermons?