Excessive violence in schools

[Ken]

Can you explain to me why forces outside of one’s control compel someone to go punch little children in the head, father children out of wedlock, mug, and steal? You seem to believe that people have almost no agency.

There are a lot of really poor people who don’t do the above things. The topic of concern is people who do.

When have I ever said that people have no agency? You are the one who came here first and talked about "racialized" violence as if one's race predestines one to violence.

But if you spent any time at all in schools across different socioeconomic spectrums you would realize that there is a correlation between socioeconomics and violence or crime. And it isn't a racial thing. You can see the same exact patterns there in Ohio. The poor and economically depressed parts of Southeast Ohio bordering Appalachia have higher rates of substance abuse, crime, violence, and dysfunction than other more prosperous parts of the state. You know this to be true. And children growing up in that environment are also going face more obstacles than children growing up in more affluent communities. Whether it is poor white rural areas in southern Ohio or poor minority urban areas in northern Ohio. Poverty is generational in this country as is crime and other problems like substance abuse. If your father is in prison and your mother is working three low-wage jobs to survive you are obviously going to have less supervision and guidance growing up than a child from a prosperous family that is engaged in school, church, and community life. If this is not clear to you then it should be.

Obviously demographics and socioeconomics are not destiny. Only a minority of kids actually turn bad, even in poor communities. Most do their best. But the fact of the matter is that this minority is higher in poorer communities. Because environment matters.

If you want to help children do better then you need to figure out how to help them break that cycle. Which is not an easy task. What we do now, which is send them off to prison to follow in their parents footsteps, is clearly not working. Everything I have been writing here is about giving children the tools to break this cycle because I think that very few children are truly irredeemable. Do you agree or disagree?

[Josh]

No, it’s not obvious. My mother grew up poor and her mother really poor. Yet they didn’t engage in these kind of behaviours. Violence is now worse in the area they grew up in, not better.

[Ken]

No, it’s not obvious. My mother grew up poor and her mother really poor. Yet they didn’t engage in these kind of behaviours. Violence is now worse in the area they grew up in, not better.

I'm not sure what you think this anecdote demonstrates. But it seems like you are agreeing with my main point. I am not saying that poverty predestines one for a life of crime. It clearly doesn't. But it does stack the odds against you. And the fact that things are getting worse in that community both illustrates that point and strongly suggests we are doing things wrong.

[Josh]

No, it’s not obvious. My mother grew up poor and her mother really poor. Yet they didn’t engage in these kind of behaviours. Violence is now worse in the area they grew up in, not better.

I'm not sure what you think this anecdote demonstrates. But it seems like you are agreeing with my main point. I am not saying that poverty predestines one for a life of crime. It clearly doesn't. But it does stack the odds against you. And the fact that things are getting worse in that community both illustrates that point and strongly suggests we are doing things wrong.

“Stack the odds against you?”

Choosing to murder someone, or to fornicate, or to punch a child in the head is not a matter of “odds”. It is a decision.

Do you think the older males in this anecdote have agency, or not?

[Ken]

No, it’s not obvious. My mother grew up poor and her mother really poor. Yet they didn’t engage in these kind of behaviours. Violence is now worse in the area they grew up in, not better.

I'm not sure what you think this anecdote demonstrates. But it seems like you are agreeing with my main point. I am not saying that poverty predestines one for a life of crime. It clearly doesn't. But it does stack the odds against you. And the fact that things are getting worse in that community both illustrates that point and strongly suggests we are doing things wrong.

“Stack the odds against you?”

Choosing to murder someone, or to fornicate, or to punch a child in the head is not a matter of “odds”. It is a decision.

Do you think the older males in this anecdote have agency, or not?

Yes, we all know what your position is. Lock them all up. How well is that approach working? Our schools and communities must be the safest places in the world by now, right?

[temporal1]

No, it’s not obvious. My mother grew up poor and her mother really poor. Yet they didn’t engage in these kind of behaviours.
Violence is now worse in the area they grew up in, not better.

The dynamics of public school ed has drastically changed.
Early on, many were starved for opportunities to learn to read, to learn, to improve their lives, their family’s lives.
Schools were created to serve and support families, not vice versa.

Today, gov ed is required, taken for granted, often unwanted+wasted. Budgets are huge, but nothing is enough.

Unions are undeniably powerful, they are in it to win it - most of all, for teachers, for union power.
Unions have zero interest in empowering parents with their children! - They want to replace parents, call the shots.
They want dependency. They want ignorance, they esp don’t want parents to know their own importance, their own ability.

Unions want to play at being masters of the universe, designing society as they dream.
They want parents to feel inadequate and helpless.

Thus far, as you’ve given different examples, they’re not doing great. Of course, the answer: More taxpayer dollars!
Gov is great for throwing good money after bad. Their favorite song.

Well. The pandemic was a sort of dream come true: Shutting down the DOE.

Not a sufficient answer. But it has many more folks thinking about alternatives than ever before. i hope, a good thing.

Home Schools, Alternatives, post-pandemic
viewtopic.php?t=3804

The unions will fight it tooth+nail. The current DOE leadership .. is worse than incompetent Betsy DV.
There are serious problems that run deep. And, getting worse. Top-down problems.

That’s why unions exist: for themselves, their members. No other reason on earth.
Unions exist to protect teachers FROM students and parents.

Somewhere earlier, in this topic on egregious bullying, one teacher is describing how teachers need to protect themselves from starry-eyed students. Well, yes, don’t be stupid, but this is not comparable to teens beating up small girls.

Private schools often don’t pay as well.
Teachers i’ve met are there because working conditions are better, quality of life is better, they are appreciated for their work.
Decades have passed, teachers i’ve met continue to describe similar.

Conversely, some new public school teachers don’t make it through their first year.
And, lots of potentially great teachers refuse to even try, knowing working conditions are not good.

With all these realities, teaching is not drawing the best. i’m sorry to say.

[Josh]

Perpetrators who harm children need locked up (and executed, if they commit capital crimes).

I’m a bit puzzled what else you think should be done. People who harm children tend to reoffend over and over.

[Ken]

Perpetrators who harm children need locked up (and executed, if they commit capital crimes).

I’m a bit puzzled what else you think should be done. People who harm children tend to reoffend over and over.

I'm puzzled that all you think is necessary is to respond to violence after the fact rather than working to prevent it in the first place.

What do you think Jesus meant when he said Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God. Do you think that has any application in this context? Do "peacemakers" work to prevent violence in the first place, or do they stand around and watch it happen and then pick up the pieces afterwards. What do you think?

[temporal1]

No, it’s not obvious. My mother grew up poor and her mother really poor. Yet they didn’t engage in these kind of behaviours.
Violence is now worse in the area they grew up in, not better.

yep. many of us and those who came before came from poverty without foisting violence or harm to others, esp not vulnerable others. the notion of “COWARDICE” versus personal integrity is something the poorest can value. the wealthy cannot claim sole possession of integrity, honor. false. scriptures teach the opposite: the wealthy will be seriously challenged!

Ben Shapiro / Purple Haired Leftist Can’t Handle Red-Pilled Asian American / -12min

Description:
“There is a clip that went viral of young people talking about politics on a Vice panel.
This particular panel was extraordinarily amusing because you can see the woke in action.
In this panel, they debate why Asians outperform other ethnicities, economically speaking, and why they have such low crime rates.”

The clip is in 2 parts, first, the young Asian trying to make a point about the influence of intact families and cultures;
at about 7:15 minutes, Ben talks about systems that are failing people.

Remember, taxpayer dollars are pirated to make sure the prevailing beliefs (of the purple-haired girl and others with her) are normalized. The so-called “debate” is formally+heavily biased in one direction. Proponents are perfectly at ease talking down to those not in strict alignment, whether they are students, teachers, politicians, msm. This topic is loaded with it.

The only way to have authentic debate would be to:
1) remove access to taxpayer dollars by one-sided experimental ideologues; or,
2) fund both/all sides equally.

imho, the haughty young purple-hair owes mr. business suit an apology.

[Szdfan]

I belong on the MTSS committee at work and yesterday we had our bimonthly meeting after school. MTSS means "Multi-Tiered Systems of Support" and it's one of the models used by public schools in Colorado to intervene with difficult students. We talked about students who are struggling, whether any of them are making progress (some are!) and trying different processes with students. MTSS helps identify struggling students, build relationships between students and teachers, generate data on how the students are doing and encourage positive behavior.

As I sat with my colleagues, I reflected on how absolutely empty and useless this conversation on MN is. Like a lot of topics on MN, this discussion is all sound and fury and signifies nothing.

Locking children in prison or mythologizing the past doesn't help my students. One of the keys to prevent violent behavior in children is to develop relationships with them, which is extremely difficult to do with kids who have had practically every adult in their lives fail them. The kids don't trust adults.

Earlier on in this thread, I asked what nuts and bolts things Coconut Palm could have done to prevent this attack and I don't think I've gotten a substantial answer because I don't think anyone here really knows. This isn't a discussion about what actually can be done. It's just people yelling about politics.

The public school system is a mess. There's a lot that's broken. But at the same time, I'm grateful for my colleagues who do care about our students and who are trying to make a difference in their lives in the face of incredible difficulty. There are good people in public education and I'm grateful to work with them.

Outrage is easy. Actually changing things is hard.