Excessive violence in schools

[Ken]

This sort of “plagiarizing” scriptures is evident in public schools i’ve experienced with my grdaughter in seattle area schools. It’s rather horrifying. Remove Jesus with surgical precision, and call it a day.

imho, it borders on lying to intentionally hide the source. in the least, confusing and empty.

children deserve Truth.

Listen to yourself. Are you seriously arguing that Christian principles have no application outside of a church context?
If so, I think most people would disagree with you.

you’re being ludicrous.
in your own words you described what’s being done. you spelled it out. you even used the word, “couched.”
you may not like my words. that doesn’t make them false.

it seems you don’t like your own reality. i believe that’s a good thing.

I am most obviously not saying that the proponents of restorative justice in education are starting with the New Testament and then expunging out Jesus to make it secular.

What I am saying is that the restorative justice focus on teaching values, responsibility, respect, restitution, and reintegration share a lot in common with New Testament Christian principles. As opposed to the traditional (and failed) punishment and isolation approach which is more Old Testament.

[Ken]

The law’s job is to protect children, not to forgive perpetrators.

Our own Anabaptist churches sometimes get this wrong, and focus a lot more on forgiving perpetrators and completely fail to protect victims.

I noticed a lot of ink above worrying about the 15 year old males, but not much concern at all for terrified 9 year old girls. The simple fact is those 15 year olds are already on a path to prison by their own choices. Nobody forced them to beat up a defenceless young child.

The criminal justice system and the education system are two separate things.

And restorative justice is not about forgiveness. It is about teaching values and responsibility and being responsible and accountable for your actions. Which I would hope you think are good things.

One sign of intelligence is the ability to hold two concepts in your head at the same time. Or care about two different things at one time. No one is not caring about 9 year old girls. But now that you have thrown those two 15 year olds into prison. Now what? They will likely get out in a year or less at age 16 and likely won't return to school. Now what is your plan? Lock them up for 75 years for a crime they committed at age 15? What is your plan to help them become responsible members of society? We basically have two chances to reach and interact with them. Either in school, or in prison. There isn't a third option. Which is it going to be?

[Szdfan]

One sign of intelligence is the ability to hold two concepts in your head at the same time. Or care about two different things at one time.

A lot of what you say here Ken I agree with, but I don't believe that the inability or unwillingness to hold two concepts in your head at the same time has to do with intelligence. I know some incredibly intelligent people who are black and white thinkers. I think it has more to do with world view.

[Soloist]

One sign of intelligence is the ability to hold two concepts in your head at the same time. Or care about two different things at one time.

A lot of what you say here Ken I agree with, but I don't believe that the inability or unwillingness to hold two concepts in your head at the same time has to do with intelligence. I know some incredibly intelligent people who are black and white thinkers. I think it has more to do with world view.

It really depends on what he means by concepts… I am a black and white thinker but I’m also capable of holding multiple concepts simultaneously. I know people have complained because I’m generally three or four connections ahead of them and they don’t understand my comments in response to them. Unfortunately I tend to cut past simple arguments to the underlying problem with the conversion and often I’m not followed and they assume it’s a non sequitur. Generally a few minutes later they get to the point but they have already forgotten I pointed it out.

[Ken]

One sign of intelligence is the ability to hold two concepts in your head at the same time. Or care about two different things at one time.

A lot of what you say here Ken I agree with, but I don't believe that the inability or unwillingness to hold two concepts in your head at the same time has to do with intelligence. I know some incredibly intelligent people who are black and white thinkers. I think it has more to do with world view.

I was referring to caring about both the perpetrators and the victims in this particular episode. Just because we don't spend a lot of bandwidth talking about the girl who was beaten doesn't mean we don't care.

But if we are going to have a long discussion about school violence, the more productive discussion is figuring out how to prevent it in the first place. So we can prevent future victims and future violence. And that puts your focus on the perpetrators.

In any event it comes from an old F. Scott Fitzgerald quote which I will have to look up.....

Here it is:

The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.
- F. Scott Fitzgerald

[Josh]

As a general rule, there needs to be far more concern for victims first and concerns for perpetrators should be a very distant second.

Overall, some people are just sociopaths and will do whatever they can get away with. No amount of “education” fixes this. The proper answer is to keep normal people safe from sociopaths.

[temporal1]

As a general rule, there needs to be far more concern for victims first and concerns for perpetrators should be a very distant second.

Overall, some people are just sociopaths and will do whatever they can get away with. No amount of “education” fixes this. The proper answer is to keep normal people safe from sociopaths.

In olden days, the child’s father, brothers, uncles, cousins, or others would have dealt out swift justice to the teen.
In form of verbal threats, or physical actions. Often, the mere presence of a father or brother was/is enough, no words necessary.
The teen would have learned, psychopath or not. A psychopath would have learned to be more deceitful about his sins/crimes.

In this case, no father has spoken for the child (??)

With the advent of extreme secular defense law, IN ADDITION TO breakup of family units, victims are cast into the background.
Today, it’s expected that obvious murderers will plead “not guilty,” at least to begin.

What is ignored today is how perpetrators take it upon themselves to be merciless jury, judge, excutioner, victims have no legal counsel as they are attacked or murdered.

No system is perfect.
You are correct. The present system stinks. It’s out of balance in favor of criminals, both socially and formally in courts.
Worsening daily.

i’ve warned my family, expect to be a target of crime. Don’t expect others present to come to your aid, don’t expect police or courts to hold perps accountable. Everyone is a potential target, it’s a matter of timing. It’s the criminal’s choice.

[temporal1]

.. I don't believe that the inability or unwillingness to hold two concepts in your head at the same time has to do with intelligence.
I know some incredibly intelligent people who are black and white thinkers.

I think it has more to do with world view.

i mostly agree.
especially having experienced raising 2 healthy children, and now the privilege of my grdaughter, i’m most impressed with what contemporary science reveals: so much of our unique humanity occurs/begins at conception.

i don’t understand this to be developed world view, but, here begins the various lenses through which we will understand our world views. before learning of this science, the reality of having those 2 blessed babies, 6 years apart, so alike, yet so unique AT BIRTH, beyond denial. it was uncanny how similar they were in looks, also in ability+intelligence, yet, school proved, they could regularly come to the same outcomes/conclusions, taking 2 very different paths to get there.

these 2 looked like close fraternal twins, yet their personalities, emotions, “philosophies,” couldn’t have been more different.

i would take their paper SAT results, hold them up to the light, the scores were nearly identical.
but their way of learning and expression couldn’t have been more different.

now my grdaughter is another unique creation. she has some traits of each, some i don’t recognize. she looks like my younger sister! madness.

world view is important, i think secondary to or following, God’s design. at conception. only God could do this.

- - - - - - -

Presently, i believe our tech-driven world is over-emphasizing black+white thinkers, a lot by employment opportunities.
A tech-brain centered and driven culture comes at a price. All are valuable. Aiming for healthy balance in God’s order is key.

The Efficiency god is a fearsome false god. Being human isn’t efficient.

Page 8 / Feb 2022 / viewtopic.php?t=1019&start=70

2022 / 50 Best Jobs ..
https://www.glassdoor.com/List/Best-Job ... KQ0,20.htm

[temporal1]

^^About those SATs.
one day while in college, our beautiful, but, let’s say, “uninterested in working very hard,” daughter began whining to me,
“i just can’t do this, i’m not smart enough,” .. .. (meaning, why should i work when i get what i want by batting my eyelashes?”) .. i paused for a moment. listening and watching. she did not learn that at home, she definitely learned it at college.

i replied, “i’m sure you can get away with that with a lot of people.” .. “i’ve seen your SATs and i know better.”
“now get back to class.”

she eventually graduated. taking the long road at every turn.

[Ken]

As a general rule, there needs to be far more concern for victims first and concerns for perpetrators should be a very distant second.

Overall, some people are just sociopaths and will do whatever they can get away with. No amount of “education” fixes this. The proper answer is to keep normal people safe from sociopaths.

Once again you miss the point of what I'm saying. It isn't about caring for these two individuals and I don't particularly.

It is about building an education system and society that produces far less of them. Some of us are interested in living in a far less violent society. You don't think that would be a good thing and worthy goal?