Excessive violence in schools

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Ken
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Re: Excessive violence in schools

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:57 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:26 pm … so with no firearms, violent people magically become peaceful?

Most my neighbours have firearms. Yet violence is really low - so low, we don’t even have police. It’s been a long time since anyone remembers any property crimes around here. The only violent crimes that ever show up are domestic violence.
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:57 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:26 pmRedneck rural areas are "perceived to be" violent by many people. Perception is not always reality. Sometimes it is, but not always.
Reality is what is important. We actually can figure out places that are violent, and places that aren't. So far, no 9 year olds where I live have been so brutally beaten on the school bus that they had to go to the ER for their injuries. The same is not true of Miami-Dade.

I don't live in a "redneck rural area", although your prejudice of calling it "redneck" (which is an insult and a slur) is quite telling.
In any event this thread is about school children not your rural neighbors. Do you think it is a good idea for 14 year old kids to be armed when they are out on the streets and in school?
Your political agenda of wanting legislation passed to enact strict gun control is not relevant to this thread. The violence I posted about involved fists, not guns.
The kids you posted the video about actually came out of the experience without any physical injury. They were checked out by the EMTs and sent home.

Like I said, if you really want to address the prevalence of youth violence in schools you need to look at poverty. And if you want to make that violence less deadly then you need to look at the unrestricted availability of firearms that youth have access to. Those are the biggest factors for why we have youth violence and why it is so deadly.

If you don't want to talk about either of those things then you really aren't serious about finding solutions to "excessive violence in schools" which is what you titled your thread.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Excessive violence in schools

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:36 pm.Like I said, if you really want to address the prevalence of youth violence in schools you need to look at poverty. And if you want to make that violence less deadly then you need to look at the unrestricted availability of firearms that youth have access to. Those are the biggest factors for why we have youth violence and why it is so deadly.
No, poverty is not the cause. Poor people are not inherently violent. My mother grew up really poor and they didn’t have a violence problem. Lots of very poor communities are not violent.

You keep being fixated on firearms. Firearms are irrelevant to this discussion. Please stay on topic.
If you don't want to talk about either of those things then you really aren't serious about finding solutions to "excessive violence in schools" which is what you titled your thread.
Violence of teen males preying on younger children has nothing to do with firearms. Stop bring it up.

It also has zero to do with poverty.

Poverty does not force a 15 year old male to punch a little girl in the head repeatedly.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Excessive violence in schools

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:14 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:36 pm.Like I said, if you really want to address the prevalence of youth violence in schools you need to look at poverty. And if you want to make that violence less deadly then you need to look at the unrestricted availability of firearms that youth have access to. Those are the biggest factors for why we have youth violence and why it is so deadly.
No, poverty is not the cause. Poor people are not inherently violent. My mother grew up really poor and they didn’t have a violence problem. Lots of very poor communities are not violent.

You keep being fixated on firearms. Firearms are irrelevant to this discussion. Please stay on topic.
If you don't want to talk about either of those things then you really aren't serious about finding solutions to "excessive violence in schools" which is what you titled your thread.
Violence of teen males preying on younger children has nothing to do with firearms. Stop bring it up.

It also has zero to do with poverty.

Poverty does not force a 15 year old male to punch a little girl in the head repeatedly.
Well, I guess since the two kids who did that have been arrested, the problem of "excessive youth violence" has been solved. Since that one case is all you seem to want to talk about.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Excessive violence in schools

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:23 pmWell, I guess since the two kids who did that have been arrested, the problem of "excessive youth violence" has been solved. Since that one case is all you seem to want to talk about.
It should be obvious to you why I would choose something that is well-referenced in major news media with direct quotes from the parents involved and with first-hand video.

Otherwise, I believe you would be telling me that the incident never happened.

The only reason the perpetrators got arrested is because of all of the media attention on the matter.
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temporal1

Re: Excessive violence in schools

Post by temporal1 »

When going off-topic is the first response, then devote 30+ posts in attempt to defend rather than apologize and correct, that suggests an ego problem, possibly testosterone, and it gets boring, along with disappointment the OP topic is sacrificed in the process.

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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Excessive violence in schools

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:18 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:23 pmWell, I guess since the two kids who did that have been arrested, the problem of "excessive youth violence" has been solved. Since that one case is all you seem to want to talk about.
It should be obvious to you why I would choose something that is well-referenced in major news media with direct quotes from the parents involved and with first-hand video.

Otherwise, I believe you would be telling me that the incident never happened.

The only reason the perpetrators got arrested is because of all of the media attention on the matter.
So since this case is problem solved, what is it that you actually wanted to discuss?
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Excessive violence in schools

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:51 pmSo since this case is problem solved, what is it that you actually wanted to discuss?
This problem is not solved at all; the Miami-Dade administration admitted they have a "spiralling violence" problem. The problem continues to exist and be ongoing. This particular anecdote was a point of discussion.

Ken, do you think the right response to this kind of violence is to flood the TV news with it and then expect the school district's police to make an arrest? With current violence rates, that would be all the TV news would end up reporting on...
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Excessive violence in schools

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 11:48 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:51 pmSo since this case is problem solved, what is it that you actually wanted to discuss?
This problem is not solved at all; the Miami-Dade administration admitted they have a "spiralling violence" problem. The problem continues to exist and be ongoing. This particular anecdote was a point of discussion.

Ken, do you think the right response to this kind of violence is to flood the TV news with it and then expect the school district's police to make an arrest? With current violence rates, that would be all the TV news would end up reporting on...
The school district had nothing to do with whether an arrest was made or not made. The parents pressed charges and the police made the arrest.

And if you want to talk about a growing problem of violence in in Miami/Dade or Florida schools that is going to bring us right back to root causes. What do you think they are? Hint, it isn't race or racial diversity in the schools. And it is an issue across Florida, not just urban or diverse schools. And finally, the education laws that govern how schools respond to school violence come from the state legislature and governor. As do the resources to tackle the problem.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Szdfan

Re: Excessive violence in schools

Post by Szdfan »

Ken wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:51 pm And finally, the education laws that govern how schools respond to school violence come from the state legislature and governor. As do the resources to tackle the problem.
There are certain procedures and processes that my school is required by law to follow. I imagine that Florida and the Miami-Dade District has similar procedures.

Data plays a huge role in making decisions in education and schools. An incident like what had happened at Coconut Palm Academy is indicative that something has gone wrong, but we are arguing over incomplete information that doesn't give a full picture of what's actually going on. Outrage is easy; solving systematic problems and changing cultures is really difficult.

According to US News & World Reports, Coconut Palm Academy has 1200 students and two counselors. That's 600 students per counselor. I work for a much smaller school. The middle school and high school employs a therapist and a guidance counselor. The K-12 district employs a social worker. It's not enough.

Schools are expected to "fix" kids. A lot of our students deal with really difficult things at home -- poverty, abuse, neglect, drugs, mental health problems, etc. Dealing with these problems without parental support is even more difficult. Last semester, a parent complained to my principal that I called her five times about her son that was disrupting my class. This is not a parent I can work with to resolve her son's behavior.

Some of our students receive the message from their parents that they don't have to respect or listen to their teachers.

Public schools don't choose their students. We are required by law to accept any student that lives in our district.

We are also required by law to collect the required documentation that demonstrates the school did everything in it's power to correct a student's behavior before expelling them. There are certain types of behavior plans that we to attempt with that student. All these processes are intended to preserve the rights of the student -- even difficult students have a right to an education.

My superintendent told me Thursday that there is a bill in the Colorado legislature that would make it more difficult to suspend and expel students. I think bills like these come with good intentions, but it makes it harder for schools.

There are alternative schools in the area for high-conflict kids, but it takes a while to put students in them and the closet one is twenty miles away. Students with developmental disabilities that have IEPs (Individual Education Program) are legally almost impossible to expel.

Public Education is far from perfect. It's a dysfunctional system.
But one thing that I'm learning is that for me, teaching is a form of love. That includes loving students who are difficult and strange, who can't sit still and who are dealing with things at home that you have no idea about.

Outrage is easy. Solving problems is hard.
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temporal1

Re: Excessive violence in schools

Post by temporal1 »

Szdfan wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 7:29 am
There are certain procedures and processes that my school is required by law to follow. I imagine that Florida and the Miami-Dade District has similar procedures.

Data plays a huge role in making decisions in education and schools. An incident like what had happened at Coconut Palm Academy is indicative that something has gone wrong, but we are arguing over incomplete information that doesn't give a full picture of what's actually going on. Outrage is easy; solving systematic problems and changing cultures is really difficult.

According to US News & World Reports, Coconut Palm Academy has 1200 students and two counselors. That's 600 students per counselor. I work for a much smaller school. The middle school and high school employs a therapist and a guidance counselor. The K-12 district employs a social worker. It's not enough.

Schools are expected to "fix" kids. A lot of our students deal with really difficult things at home -- poverty, abuse, neglect, drugs, mental health problems, etc. Dealing with these problems without parental support is even more difficult. Last semester, a parent complained to my principal that I called her five times about her son that was disrupting my class. This is not a parent I can work with to resolve her son's behavior.

Some of our students receive the message from their parents that they don't have to respect or listen to their teachers.

Public schools don't choose their students. We are required by law to accept any student that lives in our district.

We are also required by law to collect the required documentation that demonstrates the school did everything in it's power to correct a student's behavior before expelling them. There are certain types of behavior plans that we to attempt with that student. All these processes are intended to preserve the rights of the student -- even difficult students have a right to an education.

My superintendent told me Thursday that there is a bill in the Colorado legislature that would make it more difficult to suspend and expel students. I think bills like these come with good intentions, but it makes it harder for schools.

There are alternative schools in the area for high-conflict kids, but it takes a while to put students in them and the closet one is twenty miles away. Students with developmental disabilities that have IEPs (Individual Education Program) are legally almost impossible to expel.

Public Education is far from perfect. It's a dysfunctional system.
But one thing that I'm learning is that for me, teaching is a form of love. That includes loving students who are difficult and strange, who can't sit still and who are dealing with things at home that you have no idea about.

Outrage is easy. Solving problems is hard.
i largely agree with this.
outrage and dismissal directed at parents and taxpayers (like Josh) is not the answer .. regardless of high political leadership leading it.

in the OP case, even the mother of the beaten child was kind (from what i saw) toward the extremely violent bully.
a lot of people recognize the deep dysfunction.

unfortunately, esp since mid-1960’s, politicians decided to throw all (adult) social problems directly onto STUDENTS - “they’ll work it out” in schools! i was very young at the time, still, i remember having a sense that POLITICIANS were getting away with murder with this new idea: dump it on the schools, let them figure it out. what a cop-out.

most schools were mostly made up of really nice female teachers who did not resist.
they were accustomed to being dumped on.

what other group would have allowed this??
(the idea that major societal problems would be foisted on your business or company, you’re to problem-solve,” ‘catch ya later, at next election. others might have said, “no, our workload is full as it is!” “we’re teaching basics required for life, no time for social engineering experiments!”

these are adult problems, adults should be responsible, not children being thrown together in a free for all, with hope most survive.

your thoughts seem to be mostly from a private citizen perspective, have you completed 1 year in the dysfunctional system?

to reiterate a point i tried to make earlier, wealthier schools, private schools, are not left out of these problems.
they, too, face aggression and violence between students. it’s now advanced on social media, the vast majority of incidents go unreported. even between girls. monkey-see, monkey-do. these are family/society problems, not the business of schools.

children are not born civilized.
parents are the FIRST and the FOUNDATION for socializing their children, however, all of society is to support and contribute to the LENGTHY process God designed. all cultures. all continents.

self-servng politicians have created a disaster.
throwing it all on the shoulders of schools+students was a bad turn.

if only schools+teachers would have refused to be dumped on from the start, gov schools might still be worthwhile.
the die was cast, decades later .. “what a mess!”

schools need to be allowed to set BOUNDARIES for admission. people value what they personally invest in.
before my time, students and their families SACRIFICED to get formal education.
when i was young, there were standards+expectations to be met to enter public school.

i was in very culturally mixed public schools. very. students received good educations.
every student knew about the principal’s office.

bad things happened. punishments were no surprise. parents supported teachers, and vice versa!
children knew, if they got into trouble at school, more would be waiting at home.
i didn’t know of classmates in divorced families until jr high. no matter skin color or culture.
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