Howard Bean

[Josh]

One major challenge is his stated ignorance is in “private”. Frankly, I think churches need to make more public statements when a leader has such a profound lack of understanding of basic scriptural morals.

What exactly did he say he didn’t know was wrong?

According to Trudy’s blog (which I believe), touching a girl on inappropriate places or placing her own hands on inappropriate places on herself.

Somehow I figured out I’m not supposed to touch a girl’s rear end or chest by the time I was age 10 or so. This man achieved being a bishop, a schoolteacher, and an author, but claimed ignorance of knowing he shouldn’t touch female students in those places.

More concerningly, quite a few people knew this went on, and it was quietly avoided. In my opinion, someone with errors in judgment that bad should not be a schoolteacher, a bishop, or an author of multiple CLP books on child training and how to raise a family.

[Ken]

One major challenge is his stated ignorance is in “private”. Frankly, I think churches need to make more public statements when a leader has such a profound lack of understanding of basic scriptural morals.

What exactly did he say he didn’t know was wrong?

According to Trudy’s blog (which I believe), touching a girl on inappropriate places or placing her own hands on inappropriate places on herself.

Somehow I figured out I’m not supposed to touch a girl’s rear end or chest by the time I was age 10 or so. This man achieved being a bishop, a schoolteacher, and an author, but claimed ignorance of knowing he shouldn’t touch female students in those places.

More concerningly, quite a few people knew this went on, and it was quietly avoided. In my opinion, someone with errors in judgment that bad should not be a schoolteacher, a bishop, or an author of multiple CLP books on child training and how to raise a family.

So he is clearly BOTH a sexual predator AND a serial liar.

And even if the sexual predation mostly happened years ago,* the lying continues to this day.

*although we don’t really know that either. It could be something else he is lying about. There is clearly a pattern here.

[Neto]

Does God [USE] imperfect people to serve His purposes ? I believe He has throughout history and does still today. Do you know for sure that your pastor is not hiding some sin and perhaps is justifying it in their life ?

This reminds me of the Anabaptist John Howard Yoder. Did not many Anabaptists praise his works such as his book called 'The Politics Of Jesus' ? Does one now ignore what he wrote because of the sins that caught up with him ?

I believe we should not trust any man and all of his teachings but rather to test whatever is written and said asking for the Holy Spirit to guide us to not be deceived by anyone. There are many founders of Christian faith groups that have either been caught in their sinning and some are still keeping certain sins hidden.

With the history of people such as Yoder, Bakker, Swaggart, Haggard, Gothard, Tilton, Driscoll and many others in my lifetime, I do not put my faith in any human preacher. But I will read and listen to their sermons as I do believe God uses imperfect people in delivering truth to us. It is discernment we need and reliance on the Holy Spirit to be guided by as we seek to know God better and to serve in His Kingdom.

Note: From the context of what you say later, I supplied what I think the missing word is in your first sentence.

I wholeheartedly agree with what you say, especially in your third paragraph (bolded). I used to think that I needed to be especially on guard only when I was listening to a speaker I didn't know, or where there was a woman pastor speaking. [I know that many do not agree with mentioning this here, but actually, when we had a well-known Evangelical as our main speaker at our bi-annual conference in Brazil, we found out that he was having his wife do some of the sessions (and no, she was not speaking to women's issues, just a sermon like any pastor would preach), and I was one of several missionaries who chose to just leave the meeting. One other MB Wycliffe member told me that one should just be on-guard against falsehoods. I told him that I couldn't always catch them while just listening, that it requires study, as you can when reading a book.]

I so seldom read any current best-sellers in the Christian books category because I so often find errors of Biblical interpretation. This was a sermon I heard (not read in a book), but it is a good example of a really sloppy interpretation. This well-known Evangelical preacher read the passage where Jesus took his disciples across the lake to the "region of the Gaderenes" (that's the name - if I'm not also mistaken, but it was anyways the Gentile side of the lake). The story where the demon possessed man was freed by Jesus of the "legions" of demons who had infested his life. He begged to go along with Jesus, but he was told to go back to his own people, and tell them what God had done for him. Here's where the preacher made an error, and his whole sermon was built on this one thought, that "When Jesus returned, a large crowd was waiting for him." He told the story as if this was when Jesus returned to the GENTILE SIDE OF THE LAKE and went on to exclaim how great a "vival" (not REvival) had taken place among the former demon possessed man's town. But it doesn't even require much careful reading of the text to realize that it was the JEWISH SIDE to which he had returned.

Jimmy Swaggart is also an interesting case personally, because not much prior to this being exposed, he came to Brazil for a series of meetings. We had just returned from the village, and I was "spiritually steamed", I think unusually so for introverted me because we didn't know the Banawa language yet, and I SO wanted to tell them the Gospel in a way they would understand. (May have actually been our first session there, after the airstrip was completed, and we were officially allocated there.) My wife & I were downtown in Porto Velho, and the pilot was with us. We met a Brazilian guy (I think he knew the pilot) who started talking excitedly about Jimmy Swaggart coming to Brazil. The pilot told me later that he was standing there wide eyed and stunned with what I said to the young Brazilian man (because it was so totally out of character for me). I had said how we shouldn't get much excited about a man, only about Jesus. (I cannot remember it all - it was a long time ago, and it was one of those times when I'd say the Spirit of God took over me, body and soul, and it just spilled out.) Then very shortly after Swaggart returned to the States, the story broke about his "indiscretions" with hiring prostitutes to ride around in the car with him. (There were those who attempted to discipline him, but he didn't accept it, and still had enough followers that he just kept right on preaching as he had all along.)

[Ken]

Does God [USE] imperfect people to serve His purposes ? I believe He has throughout history and does still today. Do you know for sure that your pastor is not hiding some sin and perhaps is justifying it in their life ?

This reminds me of the Anabaptist John Howard Yoder. Did not many Anabaptists praise his works such as his book called 'The Politics Of Jesus' ? Does one now ignore what he wrote because of the sins that caught up with him ?

I believe we should not trust any man and all of his teachings but rather to test whatever is written and said asking for the Holy Spirit to guide us to not be deceived by anyone. There are many founders of Christian faith groups that have either been caught in their sinning and some are still keeping certain sins hidden.

With the history of people such as Yoder, Bakker, Swaggart, Haggard, Gothard, Tilton, Driscoll and many others in my lifetime, I do not put my faith in any human preacher. But I will read and listen to their sermons as I do believe God uses imperfect people in delivering truth to us. It is discernment we need and reliance on the Holy Spirit to be guided by as we seek to know God better and to serve in His Kingdom.

Note: From the context of what you say later, I supplied what I think the missing word is in your first sentence.

I wholeheartedly agree with what you say, especially in your third paragraph (bolded). I used to think that I needed to be especially on guard only when I was listening to a speaker I didn't know, or where there was a woman pastor speaking. [I know that many do not agree with mentioning this here, but actually, when we had a well-known Evangelical as our main speaker at our bi-annual conference in Brazil, we found out that he was having his wife do some of the sessions (and no, she was not speaking to women's issues, just a sermon like any pastor would preach), and I was one of several missionaries who chose to just leave the meeting. One other MB Wycliffe member told me that one should just be on-guard against falsehoods. I told him that I couldn't always catch them while just listening, that it requires study, as you can when reading a book.]

I so seldom read any current best-sellers in the Christian books category because I so often find errors of Biblical interpretation. This was a sermon I heard (not read in a book), but it is a good example of a really sloppy interpretation. This well-known Evangelical preacher read the passage where Jesus took his disciples across the lake to the "region of the Gaderenes" (that's the name - if I'm not also mistaken, but it was anyways the Gentile side of the lake). The story where the demon possessed man was freed by Jesus of the "legions" of demons who had infested his life. He begged to go along with Jesus, but he was told to go back to his own people, and tell them what God had done for him. Here's where the preacher made an error, and his whole sermon was built on this one thought, that "When Jesus returned, a large crowd was waiting for him." He told the story as if this was when Jesus returned to the GENTILE SIDE OF THE LAKE and went on to exclaim how great a "vival" (not REvival) had taken place among the former demon possessed man's town. But it doesn't even require much careful reading of the text to realize that it was the JEWISH SIDE to which he had returned.

Jimmy Swaggart is also an interesting case personally, because not much prior to this being exposed, he came to Brazil for a series of meetings. We had just returned from the village, and I was "spiritually steamed", I think unusually so for introverted me because we didn't know the Banawa language yet, and I SO wanted to tell them the Gospel in a way they would understand. (May have actually been our first session there, after the airstrip was completed, and we were officially allocated there.) My wife & I were downtown in Porto Velho, and the pilot was with us. We met a Brazilian guy (I think he knew the pilot) who started talking excitedly about Jimmy Swaggart coming to Brazil. The pilot told me later that he was standing there wide eyed and stunned with what I said to the young Brazilian man (because it was so totally out of character for me). I had said how we shouldn't get much excited about a man, only about Jesus. (I cannot remember it all - it was a long time ago, and it was one of those times when I'd say the Spirit of God took over me, body and soul, and it just spilled out.) Then very shortly after Swaggart returned to the States, the story broke about his "indiscretions" with hiring prostitutes to ride around in the car with him. (There were those who attempted to discipline him, but he didn't accept it, and still had enough followers that he just kept right on preaching as he had all along.)

The most deceptive falsehoods are not the lies of commission. They are the lies of omission.

It is easy to catch lies of commission. Actual wrong things that people say. Much harder to see what they have chosen not to say. Or detect when their points of emphasis or priorities are misguided.

Apparently Bean wrote books about child rearing. I would be reluctant to rely on someone with his obvious lack of judgment and morals to define for me what are the 5 most important or effective ways to discipline a child, just to cite one theoretical example. What he writes may not contain any obvious errors or lies. But it still may be based on distorted priorities, values, or morality.

That is why I agree with Josh here. You do not want to listen to such people. We are not so hard up for information that we need to rely on serial sexual predators and liars for guidance. There are endless better alternatives.

[Grace]

I find what Howard Bean did unconscionable and disgusting. And I won’t bother reading any of his writings. But should everything he ever wrote be nullified and cancelled? And How far should we take the whole matter of the nullification and canceling out the writings of people who have sinned? Because I can think of some Old Testament Characters who committed some major sins.

[Neto]

I find what Howard Bean did unconscionable and disgusting. And I won’t bother reading any of his writings. But should everything he ever wrote be nullified and cancelled? And How far should we take the whole matter of the nullification and canceling out the writings of people who have sinned? Because I can think of some Old Testament Characters who committed some major sins.

Repentance.

[Ken]

I find what Howard Bean did unconscionable and disgusting. And I won’t bother reading any of his writings. But should everything he ever wrote be nullified and cancelled? And How far should we take the whole matter of the nullification and canceling out the writings of people who have sinned? Because I can think of some Old Testament Characters who committed some major sins.

But the Old Testament was actually written by Moses (at least the first part of it), even though he does write about a lot of evil characters.

[Grace]

I find what Howard Bean did unconscionable and disgusting. And I won’t bother reading any of his writings. But should everything he ever wrote be nullified and cancelled? And How far should we take the whole matter of the nullification and canceling out the writings of people who have sinned? Because I can think of some Old Testament Characters who committed some major sins.

But the Old Testament was actually written by Moses (at least the first part of it), even though he does write about a lot of evil characters.

Some of the Psalms were written by David. Some of Proverbs were written by Solomon.

[Ken]

I find what Howard Bean did unconscionable and disgusting. And I won’t bother reading any of his writings. But should everything he ever wrote be nullified and cancelled? And How far should we take the whole matter of the nullification and canceling out the writings of people who have sinned? Because I can think of some Old Testament Characters who committed some major sins.

But the Old Testament was actually written by Moses (at least the first part of it), even though he does write about a lot of evil characters.

Some of the Psalms were written by David. Some of Proverbs were written by Solomon.

I’m just drawing a distinction between Old Testament characters and Old Testament authors

[Soloist]

Well none of us should listen to Paul or Peter… I mean after all Peter betrayed Jesus… and Paul well he was murdering us.