Howard Bean

[Sudsy]

If unsure about how to respond to any circumstance, thankfully God has left us the Holy Spirit as our guide. So, for a simple answer, ask Him.

[Ken]

What effect will these allegations make on the church? Does this nullify the work he did as a minister and bishop? Should those he baptized, ordained and married seek to have those events redone by a properly credentialed minister or bishop? Can the church accept the work of a corrupt man like this? I did notice that CLP still is selling his books and SS material, is this proper? Or do we respond as the Protestants would? The Protestants would mostly accept the work of broken men because we are all fallen. How will this play out?

I seriously doubt that his particular works are essential to any sort of teaching or mission work. There is a vast literature out there and I doubt his works are irreplaceable.

There are multiple issues in cases like this.

First, do you want to spend money that will go into the pocket of this man, assuming that he gains in some way through book royalties? Or profit from his work yourself?

Second, do you want him associated with your work and efforts which is what will happen if you keep using his materials?

Third, and perhaps most important, what message does it send to victims (of him or any others) if the church cannot even be bothered to remove his materials?

[Josh]

CLP (or CAM or TGS) is not a church and isn’t under the control of any one specific church, which presents a bit of a problem in situations like this.

[steve-in-kville]

CLP (or CAM or TGS) is not a church and isn’t under the control of any one specific church, which presents a bit of a problem in situations like this.

Reminds me of people claim to be sovereign citizens. Rules don't apply to them. There are entire Youtube channels dedicated to people using this tactic with law enforcement and in the court.

[Ken]

CLP (or CAM or TGS) is not a church and isn’t under the control of any one specific church, which presents a bit of a problem in situations like this.

But they still have to answer to themselves and others. And are certainly subject to pressure.

[Josh]

CLP (or CAM or TGS) is not a church and isn’t under the control of any one specific church, which presents a bit of a problem in situations like this.

Reminds me of people claim to be sovereign citizens. Rules don't apply to them. There are entire Youtube channels dedicated to people using this tactic with law enforcement and in the court.

Well, those claims are incorrect. Sovereign citizens are subject to government laws.

But CLP or other NGOs like them are not accountable to a church. It’s often unclear just who they are accountable to. They are more than happy to use churches as vehicles for fundraising and for selling their books, though.

[Ken]

But CLP or other NGOs like them are not accountable to a church. It’s often unclear just who they are accountable to. They are more than happy to use churches as vehicles for fundraising and for selling their books, though.

We can't control the whole world, only our own tiny little part of it. And even then sometimes not so much.

No church or person or other group needs to do business with CLP or any other separate organization if they don't approve of how they operate. There are always alternatives. It is just a question of priorities.

[Josh]

But CLP or other NGOs like them are not accountable to a church. It’s often unclear just who they are accountable to. They are more than happy to use churches as vehicles for fundraising and for selling their books, though.

We can't control the whole world, only our own tiny little part of it. And even then sometimes not so much.

No church or person or other group needs to do business with CLP or any other separate organization if they don't approve of how they operate. There are always alternatives. It is just a question of priorities.

Well, yes, Ken, the more conservative and Old Order groups would typically not allow CLP publications to varying degrees. Swartzies would have a complete ban on their books. Amongst Nationwide people it is not outright banned but their Sunday school curriculum for example would never be used in church.

It’s rather clear though that we have a problem with relatively liberalising organisations like CLP and CAM/TGS who publish material from gross sex offenders. Then it’s a battle to get the books pulled so they stop getting sold. The entire arena needs a lot more accountability.

[Neto]

I know nothing at all about this case (never heard of this man), and as a Dutch anabaptist, ALL the "famous authors" in the Swiss Brethren circles? I'd never heard of them before coming to Ohio. But on another track, there are songs in the hymnals, and choruses that are commonly sung in the "off the wall" style that were written by men who had failed lives, some who left the faith entirely. Do we need a book burning? Tear pages out of our hymnals?

I heard of a case where an unbeliever told a Christian friend who was big on giving out tracts that he could also "get someone saved". So he did it. Took a stranger through some tract or another, and the person repented, and "prayed the prayer", joined a local congregation, and became a dedicated Christian. Was he saved, or not? Who saves? (Hint, it isn't us. None of us.) [On the other hand, lest you think I'm just arguing that we should not re-evaluate these books, "By their fruit you shall know them." So how should the evaluations be conducted?]

[Ken]

I know nothing at all about this case (never heard of this man), and as a Dutch anabaptist, ALL the "famous authors" in the Swiss Brethren circles? I'd never heard of them before coming to Ohio. But on another track, there are songs in the hymnals, and choruses that are commonly sung in the "off the wall" style that were written by men who had failed lives, some who left the faith entirely. Do we need a book burning? Tear pages out of our hymnals?

I heard of a case where an unbeliever told a Christian friend who was big on giving out tracts that he could also "get someone saved". So he did it. Took a stranger through some tract or another, and the person repented, and "prayed the prayer", joined a local congregation, and became a dedicated Christian. Was he saved, or not? Who saves? (Hint, it isn't us. None of us.) [On the other hand, lest you think I'm just arguing that we should not re-evaluate these books, "By their fruit you shall know them." So how should the evaluations be conducted?]

I don’t think you need to tear up your hymnals. But when the hymnal is revised and republished, the character of the composers of the works included in the new version should certainly be a consideration. Editors always have to pick and choose what to include and exclude and that is as valid of a reason as any other.

You can also choose which hymns are in heavy rotation and which are not. There are lots of songs in most hymnals that never get sung.