Disciplined Church Life

[Josh]

The fact some church members are getting away with one kind of evil doesn’t mean it’s somehow a good idea for me to get away with a different kind of evil, and then protest unfair treatment.

Let’s say my sister over there is “getting away” with being a gossip, having unkind speech, and seems to have malice towards certain people.

How on earth would her escaping church discipline for that make it somehow justifiable for me to engage in fornication?

But it really is important to address both kinds of sin. The real problem comes when we start playing "my sin doesn't matter, what really matter is that other person's sin".

I fully agree. At the same time, we need to be honest we take a stance against sin, and can’t tolerate people who want to keep their own pet sin issue around.

In my church the most common “blocker” is nonresistance.
Someone wants to join but wants to still conceal carry, keep a collection of handguns and so forth.

[Josh]

Yes, it would be nice if the discussion on homosexuality would go elsewhere. Not that it isn't a case in point.

You do realize it isn't liberals who make homosexuality the front and center issue when it comes to "church discipline" or standards. It is conservatives.

That’s not true. In the UMC the liberals have been making a big deal about this for decades. Same is true of MC USA. They continue to protest and agitate until they can stack a committee or push enough conservatives out to get a 51% vote.

Liberals make accepting homosexuality front and centre of what they consider being a good, moral person.

For example, a couple of days ago on the 'Main Denomination Identifier Belief" thread Steve stated that the defining characteristic of his church (apparently above all else) was that "We push back hard on abortion and homosexuality."

One of my complaints with denominations like Steve’s (no offence intended to him personally) is they seem to mostly be defined by “we don’t accept homosexuality here”, which is not, to me, the core of Christianity.

[RZehr]

Yes, it would be nice if the discussion on homosexuality would go elsewhere. Not that it isn't a case in point.

You do realize it isn't liberals who make homosexuality the front and center issue when it comes to "church discipline" or standards. It is conservatives.

It wasn't the conservatives waking up one day and deciding to pick a fight. And churches aren't alone, it is a current problem throughout society.

For example, a couple of days ago on the 'Main Denomination Identifier Belief" thread Steve stated that the defining characteristic of his church (apparently above all else) was that "We push back hard on abortion and homosexuality."

They are pushing back. Not pushing, pushing back. They are resisting, not foisting. They are on defense, not offence.

[MaxPC]

Yes, it would be nice if the discussion on homosexuality would go elsewhere. Not that it isn't a case in point.

You do realize it isn't liberals who make homosexuality the front and center issue when it comes to "church discipline" or standards. It is conservatives.

It wasn't the conservatives waking up one day and deciding to pick a fight. And churches aren't alone, it is a current problem throughout society.

For example, a couple of days ago on the 'Main Denomination Identifier Belief" thread Steve stated that the defining characteristic of his church (apparently above all else) was that "We push back hard on abortion and homosexuality."

They are pushing back. Not pushing, pushing back. They are resisting, not foisting. They are on defense, not offence.

Spot on, RZehr. Spot on. In every case extant of denominational conflicts, it was the homosexual lobby who began the aggression against the Biblical teachings of the denomination.

[mike]

Yes, it would be nice if the discussion on homosexuality would go elsewhere. Not that it isn't a case in point.

You do realize it isn't liberals who make homosexuality the front and center issue when it comes to "church discipline" or standards. It is conservatives.

For example, a couple of days ago on the 'Main Denomination Identifier Belief" thread Steve stated that the defining characteristic of his church (apparently above all else) was that "We push back hard on abortion and homosexuality."

I disagree. When a church has had among its fundamental beliefs ever since its founding that practicing homosexuality is a sin, those who attempt to challenge that view can hardly claim it's the "conservatives" that make it a front and center issue. It is a front and center issue because of those trying to make it acceptable.

[mike]

It's not a front and center issue in my church at all. But it certainly would be if people within the church began to try to change our (historic Christian) position.

[HondurasKeiser]

Yes, it would be nice if the discussion on homosexuality would go elsewhere. Not that it isn't a case in point.

You do realize it isn't liberals who make homosexuality the front and center issue when it comes to "church discipline" or standards. It is conservatives.

For example, a couple of days ago on the 'Main Denomination Identifier Belief" thread Steve stated that the defining characteristic of his church (apparently above all else) was that "We push back hard on abortion and homosexuality."

It takes a certain kind of gall and intellectual dishonesty to suggest that LGBTQ+ issues were made "front and center" by traditional, conservative Christians and Churches. When the blessing of polyamorous relationships, divorce ceremonies and euthanasia pastoral care gain traction and join the zeitgeist I am sure you will tell us that:
A. It's not actually happening.
then
B. It's happening and who cares, how does it affect you?
then
C. It's happening and it's a good thing, where does scripture interdict ministering to people while they are actively euthanized?
then
D. This wouldn't be an issue if you conservatives hadn't brought it up in the first place.

Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

[ohio jones]

Every person and every group has different and unique lines that they draw when it comes to sex and sexuality. And they are all drawn differently when it comes to church standards and discipline. Just off the top of my head (and I'm sure I'm missing many), here are a whole bunch of sex and relationship issues that are largely NOT about LGBT since you wanted non-LGBT examples.

In the conservative Anabaptist context (see OP), the lines on these issues are not drawn based on "I strictly oppose" or "I don't object" off the top of the head of whoever is making the rules. They are based on what Jesus said, starting with his statement of creation intent:

Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?

Thus the disciplined church life excludes homosexuality, adultery, fornication, forced marriages, polygamy, prostitution, open marriages, rape, pedophilia, incest, divorce, and anything else (whether on your list or not) that falls outside this basic statement. And when this is the starting point, variations on other issues become a little easier to address.

[Ken]

Yes, it would be nice if the discussion on homosexuality would go elsewhere. Not that it isn't a case in point.

You do realize it isn't liberals who make homosexuality the front and center issue when it comes to "church discipline" or standards. It is conservatives.

For example, a couple of days ago on the 'Main Denomination Identifier Belief" thread Steve stated that the defining characteristic of his church (apparently above all else) was that "We push back hard on abortion and homosexuality."

It takes a certain kind of gall and intellectual dishonesty to suggest that LGBTQ+ issues were made "front and center" by traditional, conservative Christians and Churches. When the blessing of polyamorous relationships, divorce ceremonies and euthanasia pastoral care gain traction and join the zeitgeist I am sure you will tell us that:
A. It's not actually happening.
then
B. It's happening and who cares, how does it affect you?
then
C. It's happening and it's a good thing, where does scripture interdict ministering to people while they are actively euthanized?
then
D. This wouldn't be an issue if you conservatives hadn't brought it up in the first place.

Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

I don't know about any of that. Personally I prefer not to know about anyone else's sexuality or particular sexual proclivities. Whether in church or out of church. When you dig deep, pretty much everyone has some kind of weirdness. It has been that way since the dawn of time. I don't think it is that relevant unless they are abusing children or some such. I'm not one of these people who wants to celebrate people's sexuality (gay or straight) in church, in the workplace, or anywhere else. I personally dislike churches or workplaces that make is central point of emphasis either way. I'm sure there are churches out there that are just as obsessively pro-LGBT as those who are obsessively anti-LGBT. I think they both have misplaced priorities. Jesus focuses on other topics about 99.9% of the time and churches should too.

I don't know about the whole conservative church world. But in my own particular extended family it has been the conservative wing that has been absolutely obsessed with LGBT issues and keeps making them front and center to the exclusion of all else. Perhaps my opinions are colored by that.

[ken_sylvania]

You do realize it isn't liberals who make homosexuality the front and center issue when it comes to "church discipline" or standards. It is conservatives.

For example, a couple of days ago on the 'Main Denomination Identifier Belief" thread Steve stated that the defining characteristic of his church (apparently above all else) was that "We push back hard on abortion and homosexuality."

It takes a certain kind of gall and intellectual dishonesty to suggest that LGBTQ+ issues were made "front and center" by traditional, conservative Christians and Churches. When the blessing of polyamorous relationships, divorce ceremonies and euthanasia pastoral care gain traction and join the zeitgeist I am sure you will tell us that:
A. It's not actually happening.
then
B. It's happening and who cares, how does it affect you?
then
C. It's happening and it's a good thing, where does scripture interdict ministering to people while they are actively euthanized?
then
D. This wouldn't be an issue if you conservatives hadn't brought it up in the first place.

Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

I don't know about any of that. Personally I prefer not to know about anyone else's sexuality or particular sexual proclivities. Whether in church or out of church. When you dig deep, pretty much everyone has some kind of weirdness. It has been that way since the dawn of time. I don't think it is that relevant unless they are abusing children or some such. I'm not one of these people who wants to celebrate people's sexuality (gay or straight) in church, in the workplace, or anywhere else. I personally dislike churches or workplaces that make is central point of emphasis either way. I'm sure there are churches out there that are just as obsessively pro-LGBT as those who are obsessively anti-LGBT. I think they both have misplaced priorities. Jesus focuses on other topics about 99.9% of the time and churches should too.

I don't know about the whole conservative church world. But in my own particular extended family it has been the conservative wing that has been absolutely obsessed with LGBT issues and keeps making them front and center to the exclusion of all else. Perhaps my opinions are colored by that.

I take it you must be part of the conservative wing of your family....