Disciplined Church Life

[Sudsy]

So, to me, Paul is saying that we all need to focus on living our own lives by walking in the Spirit and not according to the flesh. If we all focused on living every moment of the day being guided and controlled by the Holy Spirit, I believe it would have resulted in far fewer church splits and be a far more impacting representation of Christianity on the unsaved. A church where the majority are walking by the Spirit will be a very uncomfortable place to stay in for those who walk according to the flesh.

Correct me if I’m wrong, I seem to recall you saying you didn’t attend church? Is this incorrect? Do you have a local church you actually attend?

I currently do not attend a physical, local church.

[ohio jones]

I do not think that this personal Disciplined Life requires a whole host of congregational rules. Or at least, it SHOULD NOT. (I'm still adjusting to this new idea, so I'm open to being convinced otherwise, that is, back to my former position of wanting to see a full set of "guidelines". Actually, I'm not really sure I am fully convinced either way. Maybe I just threw this statement out there to garner a response. I guess I really think that we can have both, a full expression of conduct guidelines AND a personal motivation and conviction in the heart-mind of each member of the congregation. But the bare rules do nothing to achieve the pure church.)

There is a substantial difference between internal self-discipline and externally imposed discipline. The goal of Christian maturity should be an internally disciplined life. A walk of faith that follows the Holy Spirit, the written Word, and the counsel of fellow believers needs very few rules. To paraphrase Galatians 3, faith does not need a schoolmaster.

But that's not where most people start. An immature believer will probably need the training wheels and guardrails of external discipline to stay on the path. The rules themselves are not the point; they should minimize distractions rather than create them. If rules become the focus, forward progress will slow or stop.

Jesus can run the world perfectly.

To the contrary. He knew better than to even try despite many people hoping that he would.

He actually said that His kingdom was not of this world. He is perfectly capable of doing anything He desires to do. The thing is, He wants willing followers. A government doesn’t care as long as you obey their laws.

Problems arise when churches start acting like governments instead of discipling people to be willing followers of Jesus.

[Heirbyadoption]

I do not think that this personal Disciplined Life requires a whole host of congregational rules. Or at least, it SHOULD NOT. (I'm still adjusting to this new idea, so I'm open to being convinced otherwise, that is, back to my former position of wanting to see a full set of "guidelines". Actually, I'm not really sure I am fully convinced either way. Maybe I just threw this statement out there to garner a response. I guess I really think that we can have both, a full expression of conduct guidelines AND a personal motivation and conviction in the heart-mind of each member of the congregation. But the bare rules do nothing to achieve the pure church.)

There is a substantial difference between internal self-discipline and externally imposed discipline. The goal of Christian maturity should be an internally disciplined life. A walk of faith that follows the Holy Spirit, the written Word, and the counsel of fellow believers needs very few rules. To paraphrase Galatians 3, faith does not need a schoolmaster.

But that's not where most people start. An immature believer will probably need the training wheels and guardrails of external discipline to stay on the path. The rules themselves are not the point; they should minimize distractions rather than create them. If rules become the focus, forward progress will slow or stop.

To the contrary. He knew better than to even try despite many people hoping that he would.

He actually said that His kingdom was not of this world. He is perfectly capable of doing anything He desires to do. The thing is, He wants willing followers. A government doesn’t care as long as you obey their laws.

Problems arise when churches start acting like governments instead of discipling people to be willing followers of Jesus.

Technically, problems arise when churches start acting like governments and yet claim that in doing so they are actually discipling people to be willing followers of Jesus...

[mike]

This reminded me of an expression I have heard various times, usually from conservative Anabaptists, that the culture represents a "disciplined church life." I'd enjoy some discussions about this idea.

How are you using the word "disciplined" here?

I might be blurring the lines a bit by wandering off into the discussion of being disciplined as a feature of culture, but what I have been meaning by a disciplined church life is a combination of 1) a church that has lifestyle rules for its members that are applications of biblical teaching and 2) a church that will discipline or remove members who choose not to follow either biblical teaching or its lifestyle rules.

In other words, the first two of Ernie's points.

1. Churches that discipline/excommunicate for the sorts of sins found in Galatians 5.
2. Churches that discipline/excommunicate for various other things including not keeping one's commitment to follow the church order

[Bootstrap]

I might be blurring the lines a bit by wandering off into the discussion of being disciplined as a feature of culture, but what I have been meaning by a disciplined church life is a combination of 1) a church that has lifestyle rules for its members that are applications of biblical teaching and 2) a church that will discipline or remove members who choose not to follow either biblical teaching or its lifestyle rules.

In other words, the first two of Ernie's points.

1. Churches that discipline/excommunicate for the sorts of sins found in Galatians 5.
2. Churches that discipline/excommunicate for various other things including not keeping one's commitment to follow the church order

Thanks, that's helpful.

Is some model of discipleship and mentoring generally part of this? How do churches approach people who need to grow into maturity in these areas?

[mike]

I might be blurring the lines a bit by wandering off into the discussion of being disciplined as a feature of culture, but what I have been meaning by a disciplined church life is a combination of 1) a church that has lifestyle rules for its members that are applications of biblical teaching and 2) a church that will discipline or remove members who choose not to follow either biblical teaching or its lifestyle rules.

In other words, the first two of Ernie's points.

1. Churches that discipline/excommunicate for the sorts of sins found in Galatians 5.
2. Churches that discipline/excommunicate for various other things including not keeping one's commitment to follow the church order

Thanks, that's helpful.

Is some model of discipleship and mentoring generally part of this? How do churches approach people who need to grow into maturity in these areas?

I think it should be, but that varies a lot. Many conservative Anabaptists basically just hand you the statement of faith and discipline and you know what you've got to align yourself with. As to people who begin to deviate, again there's a lot of variety, but you're going to start to get some questions and admonition. There's a lot of variety in how much time and grace is given to someone who is not in agreement with the church's belief and practice, but in the end if you choose not to align with what the church stands for, your membership will be revoked.

This of course is in contrast with many churches where there is hardly any disciplinary process in place at all. For example, a friend of mine's father was a known firebug and arsonist who served prison time for it. His wife divorced him and married someone else from the church they attended. In all of the years this happened, all of the above persons remained members of the same Church of the Brethren congregation, and were not disciplined by the church. In part due to this background, I believe, my friend has very strong views about the need for church discipline and excommunication.

[Szdfan]

I do not think that this personal Disciplined Life requires a whole host of congregational rules. Or at least, it SHOULD NOT. (I'm still adjusting to this new idea, so I'm open to being convinced otherwise, that is, back to my former position of wanting to see a full set of "guidelines". Actually, I'm not really sure I am fully convinced either way. Maybe I just threw this statement out there to garner a response. I guess I really think that we can have both, a full expression of conduct guidelines AND a personal motivation and conviction in the heart-mind of each member of the congregation. But the bare rules do nothing to achieve the pure church.)

There is a substantial difference between internal self-discipline and externally imposed discipline. The goal of Christian maturity should be an internally disciplined life. A walk of faith that follows the Holy Spirit, the written Word, and the counsel of fellow believers needs very few rules. To paraphrase Galatians 3, faith does not need a schoolmaster.

But that's not where most people start. An immature believer will probably need the training wheels and guardrails of external discipline to stay on the path. The rules themselves are not the point; they should minimize distractions rather than create them. If rules become the focus, forward progress will slow or stop.

When I was in seminary, we talked about discipleing as form of "socialization" in which people were taught about what it meant to follow Jesus and to be a part of a congregation before they were able to internalize it.

[steve-in-kville]

This of course is in contrast with many churches where there is hardly any disciplinary process in place at all. For example, a friend of mine's father was a known firebug and arsonist who served prison time for it. His wife divorced him and married someone else from the church they attended. In all of the years this happened, all of the above persons remained members of the same Church of the Brethren congregation, and were not disciplined by the church. In part due to this background, I believe, my friend has very strong views about the need for church discipline and excommunication.

Maybe we should discuss what discipline action should look like. Withhold the holy kiss? Hold back from communion? Worse? Obviously this will vary from church to church and the offense in question...

[Bootstrap]

I think it should be, but that varies a lot. Many conservative Anabaptists basically just hand you the statement of faith and discipline and you know what you've got to align yourself with. As to people who begin to deviate, again there's a lot of variety, but you're going to start to get some questions and admonition. There's a lot of variety in how much time and grace is given to someone who is not in agreement with the church's belief and practice, but in the end if you choose not to align with what the church stands for, your membership will be revoked.

What kinds of things are in the discipline? I'm sure there's a lot of variety, but what is the range?

How do the specific things in the discipline relate to the kind of internal spiritual discipline that mature Christians need to develop?

[Neto]

I might be blurring the lines a bit by wandering off into the discussion of being disciplined as a feature of culture, but what I have been meaning by a disciplined church life is a combination of 1) a church that has lifestyle rules for its members that are applications of biblical teaching and 2) a church that will discipline or remove members who choose not to follow either biblical teaching or its lifestyle rules.

In other words, the first two of Ernie's points.
1. Churches that discipline/excommunicate for the sorts of sins found in Galatians 5.
2. Churches that discipline/excommunicate for various other things including not keeping one's commitment to follow the church order

Thanks, that's helpful.

Is some model of discipleship and mentoring generally part of this? How do churches approach people who need to grow into maturity in these areas?

I think it should be, but that varies a lot. Many conservative Anabaptists basically just hand you the statement of faith and discipline and you know what you've got to align yourself with. As to people who begin to deviate, again there's a lot of variety, but you're going to start to get some questions and admonition. There's a lot of variety in how much time and grace is given to someone who is not in agreement with the church's belief and practice, but in the end if you choose not to align with what the church stands for, your membership will be revoked.

This of course is in contrast with many churches where there is hardly any disciplinary process in place at all. For example, a friend of mine's father was a known firebug and arsonist who served prison time for it. His wife divorced him and married someone else from the church they attended. In all of the years this happened, all of the above persons remained members of the same Church of the Brethren congregation, and were not disciplined by the church. In part due to this background, I believe, my friend has very strong views about the need for church discipline and excommunication.

I started to ask this question the other day already, but it seems like a stupid or sarcastic one. I do not mean it that way. What is meant by "church" & "churches" in the context of these statements above? I'm asking what you all think of when you read these comments.

Specifically, I think of the "church" as being the congregation. But from what I know of the typical Swiss Brethren congregational management model, I suspect it really means "leadership". When Paul wrote to the different congregations in the Greek world of that time about necessary disciplinary actions, was he appealing to or speaking to only the leadership, or to the congregation as a whole, the assembly of individual believers? (I suspect I'm experiencing another clash of ideology or understanding here - the contrast between a congregational governance model and a top-down governance model. If so, it is another symptom of my own religio-cultural heritage in conflict with the Swiss Brethren one.)