In the Name of “Mission Work” book about CAM/Mast

[Josh]

Yes. It is a phenomenal passing of the buck. His family - particularly the ordained men in his family - have not taken responsibility. Instead they asked for leniency at his court trial.

Here is the bigger question: why have other churches not demanded accountability? As far as I am concerned, the rest of the plain world needs to do so - or else excommunicate this congregation and require repentance. A church that acts this way is a false church. Paul spoke very clearly about this in 1 Corinthians 5.

Exactly. To all of this.

But they do not fellowship much with people outside of themselves, so what good is excommunication?

Perhaps it would be good if the rest of the Anabaptist world placed them under the ban. Do not eat, drink, go into business with, be partners with, extend the right hand of fellowship, or let their members be missionaries in your organisation…

This should have happened after their first cover up of JM’s escapades in Holmes County. In my opinion the ban is not used enough. And usually for frankly trifling things like (as you put it) listening to the wrong CDs.

[Soloist]

Perhaps it would be good if the rest of the Anabaptist world placed them under the ban. Do not eat, drink, go into business with, be partners with, extend the right hand of fellowship, or let their members be missionaries in your organisation…

This should have happened after their first cover up of JM’s escapades in Holmes County. In my opinion the ban is not used enough. And usually for frankly trifling things like (as you put it) listening to the wrong CDs.

Sounds good, but how do you place an entire church under a ban? and then how would you lift it? the ban is not suppose to be punitive but restorative. How would you restore a church?

[Josh]

Perhaps it would be good if the rest of the Anabaptist world placed them under the ban. Do not eat, drink, go into business with, be partners with, extend the right hand of fellowship, or let their members be missionaries in your organisation…

This should have happened after their first cover up of JM’s escapades in Holmes County. In my opinion the ban is not used enough. And usually for frankly trifling things like (as you put it) listening to the wrong CDs.

Sounds good, but how do you place an entire church under a ban? and then how would you lift it? the ban is not suppose to be punitive but restorative. How would you restore a church?

The church’s membership collectively repent. Or a member in that church can leave and join a God-fearing church.

Overall, a church that chronically harbours pedophiles, sends them to overseas missions, tries to help them sneak back after stealing >$200k from the mission org, and then has its pastors go and intimidate the pedophile’s victims from 10 years ago to help the pastor’s son avoid prosecution…

… yeah, that entire church needs excommunicated to understand the seriousness of such sin. I would personally appreciate being treated that way myself.

If this church were not a lone wolf independent it would be a bit different.

[Neto]

I would be in favor of someone coming up with a list of Anabaptist ministries who:
1. do have thorough vetting and accountability procedures
2. do have good training for their employees on how to build good organizational culture.

I think it would be nice to have a list of Anabaptist churches who do have a good church culture as well. But not sure what to do with the list. There are good people in churches with bad culture. Somehow there needs to be a way for individuals to welcome accountablity and good leadership values and be able to go into missions, even if their church does not fully welcome/embrace these things.

I wonder if there could be a public way to vett present and would-be ministry workers. I wouldn't mind my name being on a public list somewhere and anyone who knows me could raise objections to me being in ministry. You would of course get some people with grudges raising objections, and those would need to be discerned, but you would also likely get some helpful feedback on folks who are corrupt.

A person's reputation, their witness, everything can be quickly ruined. I think I have mentioned this case before, but a pastor friend of mine (from years ago) was accused by a teen boy from the boys' home where this pastor also worked. Accused of molesting him. It hit the papers, Big city, front page. When he was later cleared (as I recall the teen later admitted that he was just angry about being disciplined), there was a small article, buried in the back of the newspaper. The pastor was ruined, the boys' home ministry was ruined (it closed), and the congregation where my friend was a pastor also had to close down. The negative impression created by the first wave of "news" was too great to overcome. Perhaps it might have been different if the newspaper had printed the outcome as "loudly" as they had printed the accusation.

On the other hand, I was personally acquainted with a fellow Bible Translator/Missionary who was accused of molesting both native girls, and possibly also MK girls. He never admitted any wrong-doing. Was he innocent? Only God, his reported victims, and he himself really know for sure. But if he was innocent, then his ministry was also ruined because of this. (I personally felt that the evidence was quite convincing. That is, I think he was guilty, but I was never at that level of administration in the mission, to have dealt with the situation, or to have even heard the full evidence.)

So, How do you lay the blame? How do you know if a given ministry has policies or a vetting process in place to avoid, to the greatest degree possible, this sort of evil in their membership? About the best you can do (as far as I can think) would be to either talk with those who do the examination process for new members, or go through the process of application yourself. But the latter option would be resented when they found out that you were not a serious candidate, because of the man-hours required for this process, at least in WBT, the only mission for which I have gone through that process. In the case of WBT, however, you wouldn't get to first base unless you had the required level of formal education. I do know that they send out reference requests, because the candidate gives names. My best friend was one of my references. Years later he "confessed" to me that he had not given a very positive reference, because he felt that I had areas of my life that needed more development. No one knew me better than he, because we talked about everything. I do not know to what degree the interviewers were concerned about me as an applicant because of that, nor do I know exactly what he pointed to as an area where he felt I was not ready for service. Obviously, the mission agency would not disclose that sort of thing to the applicant.

This is why I think that the best way to do missions, is to have churches do it. Not para-church organizations. If a church does them and staffs them, they no the people. No need for some elaborate vetting process.
Of course churches couldn’t be involved in ginormas missions, and we couldn’t outsource our mission work while building business empires. But I think it would make for healthier and stronger churches and missions.

I think there is a place for collaboration between churches. And I’m not saying there is no place at all, ever, for parachurch organizations. Nonetheless…

I do understand your point, but there are many people groups who would never be reached if it was up to individual congregations to send out the workers. The amount of training necessary to gain qualification for that type of work, the many support personnel required to keep the team that is "on the front lines" effective, etc. Aviation (pilots and mechanics) or other types of transportation, whether by land or water, radio contact, computer support and repairs, a mission center for the print shop, people to do those jobs. (You also need enough teams in a single area for it to be financially reasonable to have the equipment necessary to do those tasks, and to have enough work to keep those workers busy as well.) Then you will also need people to do hostess work, both for visiting mission (congregation) supervisory personnel and for the target group people when they come out for special training, or for translation comprehension training. Bible school training (usually short workshops, with people from various language groups coming together) especially developed for people with rudimentary control of the national language. (Speaking of supervisory personnel, if they do not also live in the country themselves, they will not have the knowledge necessary to give sound advice in many areas. In WBT, these personnel are generally former Bible translators themselves, or have received similar training.)

Yes, it's true, "Plain Anabaptist" congregations would not get involved in this type of work. The closest they get to this is All-Nations Bible Translation, and that's "para-church".

I do think that the local congregation should be more involved in the early part of the process. I came to that "game" rather late, after I had finished my Bachelors (Missiology, or "Christian Applied Anthropology"). I basically begged my local congregation for input regarding what mission agency I should pursue membership with, exactly what type of work I should do, etc. No one said a thing to me in response to my pleas. But on the other hand, one of the most important references that at least WBT will heavily consider is the one from the pastor of the applicant's local congregation. And I DO also know that people get turned down, too. Since few people here would know this, I should also say that every applicant is expected to write out an entire "Doctrinal Statement". It is also no mere formality. My main interviewer was an MB like myself, but he rode me pretty hard on the section on the Inspiration of the Scripture. (I had written something that basically just said that the Scripture is our authority for all matters of faith and practice. I was very familiar with the standard expressions, those that deal with the "original autographs", but I told him that I preferred to say something about what we actually have. He was OK with that, but wanted the other part in there as well.) This doctrinal statement was not just a few pages - it was to cover all of the major doctrines.

But I personally feel that every young person should be assisted in their life-time decisions by consultations with the elders or pastors, AND input from the congregation as a whole as well. It is not just missionaries who need guidance and feedback, it is everyone. (Actually, part of the statement for new members at our congregation mentions giving and receiving counsel from the "brotherhood", which I take to include the "sisterhood" as well.) I think that this "singling out" of those who express a desire to pursue missionary ministry is perhaps due to the fact that there seems to be an idea that that particular pursuit is somehow of a higher "order". It isn't. It's also odd to me that while one of the recognized ways that a man can move toward a local ministry in the MB faith tradition is through personal leading, this is recognized here at least to some degree for missionary work, but NOT for the local ministry of a pastor or elder. (Evangelist, yes, it seems, but not for the pastorate..... )

[Neto]

Yes. It is a phenomenal passing of the buck. His family - particularly the ordained men in his family - have not taken responsibility. Instead they asked for leniency at his court trial.

Here is the bigger question: why have other churches not demanded accountability? As far as I am concerned, the rest of the plain world needs to do so - or else excommunicate this congregation and require repentance. A church that acts this way is a false church. Paul spoke very clearly about this in 1 Corinthians 5.

Exactly. To all of this.

But they do not fellowship much with people outside of themselves, so what good is excommunication?

This is one of the most shocking things for me, coming from west of the Mississippi, where all of the Mennonite congregations I knew of were a part of a "conference". Here, it's the "lone wolf congregation" that is the typical goverence model.

[RZehr]

I suppose I am a bit of a pragmatist. Because while I idealize the church, eventually just figure that since churches are what they are, maybe para-church organizations are filling an important place. As a matter of fact, I just served on a board that was created for the purpose of starting a new nonprofit organization. So I’m not exactly out to declare war on them. I guess I view the situation sort of the same way I view counseling places. Ideally the church would take care of its members spiritual needs. Unfortunately, if that doesn’t or can’t happen, then we need to come up with something that does.
Back towards the topic, I think of GRACE type (I know little to nothing about GRACE) investigation similarly and that it may fill a void at times when necessary.

The ultimate objective isn’t to create nonprofits, counseling centers, or investigative agencies. The real objective is to spread the gospel, meet people’s needs, and be transparent and responsible. And if at times, these contracted service providers are useful, that’s fine with me.

Anyway, I haven’t read this book or the Kidnapped one that CAM published. I’d like to.

[joshuabgood]

My book came today and I read it in totality. At this point I am without words...it is a must read in my view for those who are interested in foreign missions. My mind goes back to Harlans comment. More thoughts/quotes later...perhaps.

In the meantime this was a particularly stunning quote...

...a CAM board member called to ask how I was doing. I informed him I was considering legal assistance. He advised against that stating that a lawyer doesn't bring any real value to the table. Page 122

[Josh]

My book came today and I read it in totality. At this point I am without words...it is a must read in my view for those who are interested in foreign missions. My mind goes back to Harlans comment. More thoughts/quotes later...perhaps.

In the meantime this was a particularly stunning quote...

...a CAM board member called to ask how I was doing. I informed him I was considering legal assistance. He advised against that stating that a lawyer doesn't bring any real value to the table. Page 122

Do you think a Christian who is a victim should retain a lawyer? And then do what, file a lawsuit?

[ohio jones]

Here is the bigger question: why have other churches not demanded accountability? As far as I am concerned, the rest of the plain world needs to do so - or else excommunicate this congregation and require repentance. A church that acts this way is a false church. Paul spoke very clearly about this in 1 Corinthians 5.

Exactly. To all of this.

But they do not fellowship much with people outside of themselves, so what good is excommunication?

This is one of the most shocking things for me, coming from west of the Mississippi, where all of the Mennonite congregations I knew of were a part of a "conference". Here, it's the "lone wolf congregation" that is the typical goverence model.

Or the "lone wolf in sheep's clothing congregation" as the case may be.

[steve-in-kville]

Starting the thread for any discussion on the book and it’s contents.

Let us not forgot how this thread got started. This is like a re-run of the "big" CAM thread from 2019. I intend to get a hard copy of the book, despite my distaste for Amazon...