Gender confusion

[ohio jones]

Ken, I think it's really uncool that you're now denigrating Boot's personal experience with your constant hand-waving.

Newsflash for you. LGBT rates are skyrocketing among youth, that has NOT always been the case. Why do you think this is? Is it the water? Is it those nasty christians oppressing them? What is the reason, and is it a problem?

Do you think it's a good thing if most youth are on the LGBT spectrum? Do you think this represents a state of generational health?

As both a teacher and a parent of 3 girls I would suggest that at least 99% of the societal and peer pressure on teens (both today and in the past) is towards gender-normative or heterosexual stereotypes. Or whatever you want to call the opposite of LGBT.

A classic response of 1 on the Ken Response Scale (KRS 1 for short).

Maybe peer pressure is no longer as effective as it used to be.


https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgb ... ks-up.aspx

[Ken]

Ken, I think it's really uncool that you're now denigrating Boot's personal experience with your constant hand-waving.

Newsflash for you. LGBT rates are skyrocketing among youth, that has NOT always been the case. Why do you think this is? Is it the water? Is it those nasty christians oppressing them? What is the reason, and is it a problem?

Do you think it's a good thing if most youth are on the LGBT spectrum? Do you think this represents a state of generational health?

As both a teacher and a parent of 3 girls I would suggest that at least 99% of the societal and peer pressure on teens (both today and in the past) is towards gender-normative or heterosexual stereotypes. Or whatever you want to call the opposite of LGBT.

A classic response of 1 on the Ken Response Scale (KRS 1 for short).

Maybe peer pressure is no longer as effective as it used to be.


https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgb ... ks-up.aspx

If you drill down into the data from which that graph is generated you will find that the majority of Americans of all ages who identify as LGBT are actually identifying as bisexual. LGBT is actually a very broad category. Most of those are actually women who say they are attracted to women as well as men. It is actually kind of trendy these days for young women to claim that. Only 0.7% actually identify as transgender. And of those, a smaller percentage still ever act on it in any way. Most people who identify as transgender just go through their lives feeling dissatisfied with their gender identity but do nothing about it.

It is one thing for your average college girl to flirt with other girls at college party as they are wont to do. That happens all the time. Another thing entirely for someone to embark on path of transgender identity change. And then continue it into medical therapies.

[nett]

That is not what I am saying. I think our youth are going through all manner of mental health struggles right now. I have a daughter who has struggled with debilitating depression that was aggravated by the pandemic and I know how difficult it is to find mental health care for children. We had to go through endless loops and paperwork to find care even though my wife is a fairly high level physician in the same organization. And even then it was an enormous struggle to even find a therapist who had openings to see my daughter. The first two we found through referrals were just bad and didn't connect with my daughter and it ended up taking over 18 months to finally get her with someone good and with whom she connected. And this had nothing to do with LGBT issues.

Personally, I think a lot of the mental health struggles teens face involve confusion around sexuality and gender, porn and violent materials on the Internet, and the suggestion that their identity is extremely important and kind of urgent, and that their identity is largely about sexual preference and gender identity. If you don't figure that all out, you don't even know your identity, you don't know who you are. That's the message they are receiving. And in some circles, being just plain straight is not cool or interesting.

Peer pressure is a very real thing for teens. In most settings, peer pressure isn't encouraging people to be just plain straight or to be virgins. I don't think this is just "finding out who they really are". I think people are very much influenced by these factors.

What's a teenager supposed to do with that? Now let them try to figure this all out with their peer group and social media and other online sources ... which is what most of them turn to because it's the easiest and most private option ...

For the majority, at least, these things were a lot less confusing when I was growing up.

As both a teacher and a parent of 3 girls I would suggest that at least 99% of the societal and peer pressure on teens (both today and in the past) is towards gender-normative or heterosexual stereotypes. Or whatever you want to call the opposite of LGBT. Even today it is a very lonely and difficult path for any LGBT teen to be open about their sexuality and a path fraught with the constant threat of rejection and even violence from family, friends, and even every strange you encounter in public. Most of the current trans-panic in the conservative world only makes it more likely that they will be met with hostility or violence at any moment.

By contrast, actual teens today are constantly bombarded with hyper-sexual and gender-normative messaging. Who are the popular kids? Cheerleaders and football players. And all the other "cute" and "handsome" ones. What messages do teens get on Instagram and advertising and Disney? Look at the sizes of the fashion and cosmetics industries. I would venture to guess that FAR more teen girls are seeking breast augmentation surgery, botox, cosmetic dentistry, liposuction, and other procedures to conform to societal notions of female beauty than are seeking medical interventions for transgender reasons. For example, botox for 13 year olds: https://www.theguardian.com/global/2019 ... mi-adegoke

And without looking up the actual numbers I would guess that far more teen girls suffer from anorexia, bulimia, and other eating disorders in a desire to conform to stereotypical (hetero) notions of female attractiveness than seek transgender care of any kind. That is what being a girl is actually like today, not a bunch of LGBT "groomers" lurking around seeking to convert them into a life of transgenderism.

My own daughter didn't want to try out for school volleyball because she was uncomfortable with the tight shorts that are part of the uniform.
She thought it was too sexualized. On the other hand, it seems that school basketball for girls is on the decline while soccer is on the rise and one reason frequently cited by girls is that girls basketball unforms are ugly and unsexy while soccer uniforms are much more "cute". Seriously. https://www.wsj.com/articles/girls-high ... 1663645280 if you can't read it here are two relevant excerpts.

Two decades ago, girls’ basketball was the queen of high school sports. Nearly half a million players crowded into gyms nationwide, and schools carried packed rosters of varsity, JV and freshman teams.

But last school year, basketball dropped to the fourth-most-popular girls’ sport by participation, according to the data released this month by the National Federation of State High School Associations. Girls’ basketball has lost 19% of its players since 2002, while the top girls’ sport, track and field, grew 10%, along with volleyball (+15%) and soccer (+27%).

Shelby Gliebe, head coach at New Albany (Ind.) High, said the program halted junior-varsity play around midseason last year because of dwindling numbers. It was a dramatic step for a school with an enrollment of 1,800, and a program that had won the 1999 big-school state championship.

In the age of Instagram and TikTok, basketball also suffers in comparison with sports perceived to be “girlier,” Gliebe said.

“I think the biggest reason for girls not participating in basketball, and I know this is silly: It’s not a ‘cute’ sport,” said Gliebe, mentioning the skirts worn in tennis and the spandex shorts worn in volleyball and running. She said she hopes the practice of WNBA players wearing glamorous outfits into arenas helps the game appeal more to teenagers.

Being a kid is hard these days but it's always been hard. They face all kinds of threats. But the risk that some ordinary heterosexual kid might be sucked involuntarily into an LGBT life because of societal influences is not something I would put in the top 20 or even top 100 list of threats facing today's teens. This is an enormous and vast country. Does that mean it never happens? No. I'm sure you can find and elevate individual examples. But the seem very few and far between. So of all the risks facing my youngest daughter (who is the only one under age 18) the idea that she might be recruited away to be LGBT is not one of them. We spend a whole lot more time making the opposite effort (getting her to tone down her dress and pay less attention to boys).

Ken, don't take this personally, but you are perilously out of touch on this. Coming out as queer, or LGBT, especially trans garners a ton of positive attention, there are groups that shower children with attention and "support", it's much the same story online, with online communities priding themselves on being an affirming, safe space for children, and encouraging them, and even walking them through why they should transition.

You need to actually go read the stories people are posting. Your 99% figure shows how out of touch you are considering that 20% of Gen z is now identifying with some kind of divergent sexuality or gender.

in short, wake up.

[ohio jones]

It is one thing for your average college girl to flirt with other girls at college party as they are wont to do. That happens all the time.

KRS 2.

[Soloist]

.
If you drill down into the data from which that graph is generated you will find that the majority of Americans of all ages who identify as LGBT are actually identifying as bisexual. LGBT is actually a very broad category. Most of those are actually women who say they are attracted to women as well as men. It is actually kind of trendy these days for young women to claim that. Only 0.7% actually identify as transgender. And of those, a smaller percentage still ever act on it in any way. Most people who identify as transgender just go through their lives feeling dissatisfied with their gender identity but do nothing about it.

You do realize that transgender has nothing to do with attraction right? You can have transgender’s that are attracted to the same sex, same sex they’ve transitioned to, have no attraction to either sex, or be attracted to both. Also some transgender’s do not wish to be identified as transgender and will record as such. They would rather pass and not be outed. Statistically the numbers are still small but they’re climbing. They’re primarily climbing in 12 to 18 year olds particularly young females. Anyone who identifies as transgender does something about it. They don’t just continue as they are doing nothing. Identifying as transgender is a choice to take some step. That may be as simple as changing your clothing and changing your hair. It may mean hormones, and of course it might mean surgical intervention. You seem to be woefully educated about transgender‘s. Your hand waving of the issues does not change the facts. All the things you have cited in this entire thread that you say are examples of why it’s not a problem are actually reasons it is a problem. At the heart of transgenderism is self-worth. And some people would be good to remember that with compassion.

[Ken]

Ken, don't take this personally, but you are perilously out of touch on this. Coming out as queer, or LGBT, especially trans garners a ton of positive attention, there are groups that shower children with attention and "support", it's much the same story online, with online communities priding themselves on being an affirming, safe space for children, and encouraging them, and even walking them through why they should transition.

I actually work in high schools and I have not seen this to be true. Sure trans kids find their own small community of other like-minded kids, especially at a big school. And there are definitely online support communities as there are for everything, even anorexics. Teachers and administrators are generally as supportive as required to be but that is about it. And their classmates have generally learned to be tolerant so they won't complain if paired up with a kid who uses their pronouns or whatever in a lab group. At least not loudly. But trans boys who "identify" as girls do not as a rule ever get on the cheer squad or dance team or get asked out by straight boys to the prom or homecoming or any ordinary date. They don't get lead female roles in school musicals or get voted homecoming queen. Average kids outside their own little friend circle are polite to them and not much more. They certainly don't get to live a life as ordinary HS girls. Mostly they are just ignored. Same for trans girls who identify as boys. They don't get on the football or basketball teams. Most girls will be polite and tolerant to them but certainly don't want them for dates or boyfriends. But they are not one of the guys. So they basically occupy their own small little world and quickly discover that changing your pronouns or haircut and dress is not really going to get you accepted as a member of the opposite sex. Not by your classmates and not by the outside world. And even hormones and surgery is not going to do it either. So you had better really really want it or it isn't going to be worth the effort.

Being gay is actually much more common and much more accepted than being trans. Because gay kids are normally seeking their own kind and don't waste their time trying to date straight kids or pretending to be something they are not. While trans kids are hoping to be accepted as something they are not.

Witness that college swimmer guy/girl who was winning all the college swim meets a year or two ago. Even her own teammates wanted her gone not to mention all the competition. They put up with her because they legally had to but that was as far as it went. I'm sure she had her supporters but not among ordinary other girls on the swim team. Was she showered with attention and support by the swim community that she joined? Or was she merely tolerated? That is much closer to the reaction that most trans kids get when they are outside their own small circle of friends.

[ohio jones]

I was going to put this in the Christmas music thread since it has been running through my mind this season, but it's not specifically Christmas music and seems to fit here as well as anywhere. Why is there gender confusion? Why is there any kind of confusion? Because we have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way.

[RZehr]

The European Union’s executive will withhold almost all of the €22 billion in cohesion funds earmarked for Hungary until the country resolves concerns over the rule of law and the protection of human rights.https://www.yahoo.com/news/eu-freezes-a ... 54731.html

The commission said in a statement that Hungary wasn’t fulfilling the EU’s Charter of Fundamental Rights. In particular, it mentioned a so-called “child-protection law” that bans minors being exposed to any kind of portrayal of homosexuality or sex reassignment, which has drawn criticism for restricting the rights of the LGBTQ community.

[temporal1]

The European Union’s executive will withhold almost all of the €22 billion in cohesion funds earmarked for Hungary until the country resolves concerns over the rule of law and the protection of human rights.https://www.yahoo.com/news/eu-freezes-a ... 54731.html

The commission said in a statement that Hungary wasn’t fulfilling the EU’s Charter of Fundamental Rights. In particular, it mentioned a so-called “child-protection law” that bans minors being exposed to any kind of portrayal of homosexuality or sex reassignment, which has drawn criticism for restricting the rights of the LGBTQ community.

try again.
that’s really sad. the world should be learning from Hungary’s example, not sabotaging it.

[nett]

Ken, don't take this personally, but you are perilously out of touch on this. Coming out as queer, or LGBT, especially trans garners a ton of positive attention, there are groups that shower children with attention and "support", it's much the same story online, with online communities priding themselves on being an affirming, safe space for children, and encouraging them, and even walking them through why they should transition.

I actually work in high schools and I have not seen this to be true. Sure trans kids find their own small community of other like-minded kids, especially at a big school. And there are definitely online support communities as there are for everything, even anorexics. Teachers and administrators are generally as supportive as required to be but that is about it. And their classmates have generally learned to be tolerant so they won't complain if paired up with a kid who uses their pronouns or whatever in a lab group. At least not loudly. But trans boys who "identify" as girls do not as a rule ever get on the cheer squad or dance team or get asked out by straight boys to the prom or homecoming or any ordinary date. They don't get lead female roles in school musicals or get voted homecoming queen. Average kids outside their own little friend circle are polite to them and not much more. They certainly don't get to live a life as ordinary HS girls. Mostly they are just ignored. Same for trans girls who identify as boys. They don't get on the football or basketball teams. Most girls will be polite and tolerant to them but certainly don't want them for dates or boyfriends. But they are not one of the guys. So they basically occupy their own small little world and quickly discover that changing your pronouns or haircut and dress is not really going to get you accepted as a member of the opposite sex. Not by your classmates and not by the outside world. And even hormones and surgery is not going to do it either. So you had better really really want it or it isn't going to be worth the effort.

Being gay is actually much more common and much more accepted than being trans. Because gay kids are normally seeking their own kind and don't waste their time trying to date straight kids or pretending to be something they are not. While trans kids are hoping to be accepted as something they are not.

Witness that college swimmer guy/girl who was winning all the college swim meets a year or two ago. Even her own teammates wanted her gone not to mention all the competition. They put up with her because they legally had to but that was as far as it went. I'm sure she had her supporters but not among ordinary other girls on the swim team. Was she showered with attention and support by the swim community that she joined? Or was she merely tolerated? That is much closer to the reaction that most trans kids get when they are outside their own small circle of friends.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but most socialization has moved into the virtual world, especially for LGBT youth. It's not a world you're particularly welcome in, and you really have no frame of reference for what goes on there.