Gender confusion

[nett]

Nothing wrong asking for proof in either direction but he (ken) stated that Josh made it up. He could have asked for proof but instead he bashed it as “fake news”

I see a lot of that on many issues in most directions. I'd like to see us do better at saying, "here's a claim, what evidence is there that it is true of false"? Seems like we often go pages and pages, back and forth, batting away what the other person said, without first stopping to see if we are talking about something that is actually true.

And each side demands proof from the other side, in only one direction.

To me, that leads to a lot of useless churn and bad feelings without ever getting anywhere near to an actual fact worth discussing. It's easy to identify the factions, but hard to identify the facts.

Ken posted the Washington legal code, as if it state law dictates medical practice. He claims that his wife is a Doctor, but he is apparently somehow unaware of standard of care.

This is one of those things that is quite hard to prove to someone who is antagonistic. but every psych provider, and therapist knows what's on the line if they violate standard of care. And the standards are changing quite rapidly.

[nett]

Here is a summary of the actual Washington State law as provided by Children's Hospital in Seattle

I'm in a different state. But I think my experience shows that schools or counselors sometimes do things that bypass parents, whatever the official laws are. And kids - even kids younger than 13 - go to GSA clubs without parental permission or knowledge.

Ken, to me, it often feels like you are saying that these are not legitimate concerns. They are for me. Not because of something I read on the Internet, but from actual experience.

That is not what I am saying. I think our youth are going through all manner of mental health struggles right now. I have a daughter who has struggled with debilitating depression that was aggravated by the pandemic and I know how difficult it is to find mental health care for children. We had to go through endless loops and paperwork to find care even though my wife is a fairly high level physician in the same organization. And even then it was an enormous struggle to even find a therapist who had openings to see my daughter. The first two we found through referrals were just bad and didn't connect with my daughter and it ended up taking over 18 months to finally get her with someone good and with whom she connected. And this had nothing to do with LGBT issues.

What I am actually saying is that I think this particular LGBT and trans panic is largely just the latest culture war issue being manufactured by right wing media and being used by conservative politicians to implement all manner of outrageously invasive laws across the country that would criminalize and jail parents, doctors, and even teachers for doing anything to help kids who stray from orthodox heterosexual norms. And I continue to contend that the root of much of this current culture war is simple old-fashioned bigotry. News flash. LGBT kids and adults actually do exist. And they have always existed. They aren't the result of some new nefarious plot to "groom" and recruit straight kids into an LGBT life against their will. The fact that every story we see about this topic starts to unravel when you start pulling at the strings suggests that this is true.

In this particular story that you cited, we find that the women being "interviewed states "My name is Jennifer. I'm with Partners for Ethical Care. We are an organization that is fighting the medicalization of children." Which means that she most certainly knows (or should know) what the actual laws are on that topic in her own state of Washington. Yet she deliberately lies or misinforms about easily verifiable facts. Which raises immediate questions about the veracity of the rest of her story, which is mostly just assertions.

My own experience is that teachers and counselors do not bypass parents and violate the law when it comes to these subjects. They meticulously follow it. That is drilled into you from day one of teacher training. When on infrequent occasions I have an LGBT student enrolled in one of my classes I get a very meticulous confidential email from the administration and counseling office that details exactly what the student's 504 plan is, including any accommodations, and what my legal obligations and responsibilities are under section 504 of the ADA which is where these issues are covered. Same exact thing when it comes to special ed students with an IEP, or students with a disciplinary behavioral intervention plan (BIP). Or any other students with any sort of legal issues which can be legion. I actually have students with all kinds of different legal restrictions. One of the most common is abusive noncustodial parents with restraining orders who are not allowed to see, intervene, discuss, or pick up the child in question. No one I know "wings it" or substitutes their own judgement when it comes to any of this sort of thing. And if they do, they are correctly not long for the job.

Ken, I think it's really uncool that you're now denigrating Boot's personal experience with your constant hand-waving.

Newsflash for you. LGBT rates are skyrocketing among youth, that has NOT always been the case. Why do you think this is? Is it the water? Is it those nasty christians oppressing them? What is the reason, and is it a problem?

Do you think it's a good thing if most youth are on the LGBT spectrum? Do you think this represents a state of generational health?

[Bootstrap]

This is one of those things that is quite hard to prove to someone who is antagonistic. but every psych provider, and therapist knows what's on the line if they violate standard of care. And the standards are changing quite rapidly.

I'm guessing that standard of care is more relevant than state law here, but I could be wrong. Googling "standard of care transgender teens" pulls up a bunch of things that seem relevant. I haven't had time to read them carefully.

[nett]

This is one of those things that is quite hard to prove to someone who is antagonistic. but every psych provider, and therapist knows what's on the line if they violate standard of care. And the standards are changing quite rapidly.

I'm guessing that standard of care is more relevant than state law here, but I could be wrong. Googling "standard of care transgender teens" pulls up a bunch of things that seem relevant. I haven't had time to read them carefully.

Like I said, my wife had to leave the field entirely because it was becoming so problematic. treatments and therapies that were ok to mention last year were suddenly taboo, and even very open-minded progressive providers are having trouble keeping up.

[Bootstrap]

I'm in a different state. But I think my experience shows that schools or counselors sometimes do things that bypass parents, whatever the official laws are. And kids - even kids younger than 13 - go to GSA clubs without parental permission or knowledge.

Ken, to me, it often feels like you are saying that these are not legitimate concerns. They are for me. Not because of something I read on the Internet, but from actual experience.

That is not what I am saying. I think our youth are going through all manner of mental health struggles right now. I have a daughter who has struggled with debilitating depression that was aggravated by the pandemic and I know how difficult it is to find mental health care for children. We had to go through endless loops and paperwork to find care even though my wife is a fairly high level physician in the same organization. And even then it was an enormous struggle to even find a therapist who had openings to see my daughter. The first two we found through referrals were just bad and didn't connect with my daughter and it ended up taking over 18 months to finally get her with someone good and with whom she connected. And this had nothing to do with LGBT issues.

Personally, I think a lot of the mental health struggles teens face involve confusion around sexuality and gender, porn and violent materials on the Internet, and the suggestion that their identity is extremely important and kind of urgent, and that their identity is largely about sexual preference and gender identity. If you don't figure that all out, you don't even know your identity, you don't know who you are. That's the message they are receiving. And in some circles, being just plain straight is not cool or interesting.

Peer pressure is a very real thing for teens. In most settings, peer pressure isn't encouraging people to be just plain straight or to be virgins. I don't think this is just "finding out who they really are". I think people are very much influenced by these factors.

What's a teenager supposed to do with that? Now let them try to figure this all out with their peer group and social media and other online sources ... which is what most of them turn to because it's the easiest and most private option ...

For the majority, at least, these things were a lot less confusing when I was growing up.

[Ken]

I'm in a different state. But I think my experience shows that schools or counselors sometimes do things that bypass parents, whatever the official laws are. And kids - even kids younger than 13 - go to GSA clubs without parental permission or knowledge.

Ken, to me, it often feels like you are saying that these are not legitimate concerns. They are for me. Not because of something I read on the Internet, but from actual experience.

That is not what I am saying. I think our youth are going through all manner of mental health struggles right now. I have a daughter who has struggled with debilitating depression that was aggravated by the pandemic and I know how difficult it is to find mental health care for children. We had to go through endless loops and paperwork to find care even though my wife is a fairly high level physician in the same organization. And even then it was an enormous struggle to even find a therapist who had openings to see my daughter. The first two we found through referrals were just bad and didn't connect with my daughter and it ended up taking over 18 months to finally get her with someone good and with whom she connected. And this had nothing to do with LGBT issues.

Personally, I think a lot of the mental health struggles teens face involve confusion around sexuality and gender, porn and violent materials on the Internet, and the suggestion that their identity is extremely important and kind of urgent, and that their identity is largely about sexual preference and gender identity. If you don't figure that all out, you don't even know your identity, you don't know who you are. That's the message they are receiving. And in some circles, being just plain straight is not cool or interesting.

Peer pressure is a very real thing for teens. In most settings, peer pressure isn't encouraging people to be just plain straight or to be virgins. I don't think this is just "finding out who they really are". I think people are very much influenced by these factors.

What's a teenager supposed to do with that? Now let them try to figure this all out with their peer group and social media and other online sources ... which is what most of them turn to because it's the easiest and most private option ...

For the majority, at least, these things were a lot less confusing when I was growing up.

As both a teacher and a parent of 3 girls I would suggest that at least 99% of the societal and peer pressure on teens (both today and in the past) is towards gender-normative or heterosexual stereotypes. Or whatever you want to call the opposite of LGBT. Even today it is a very lonely and difficult path for any LGBT teen to be open about their sexuality and a path fraught with the constant threat of rejection and even violence from family, friends, and even every strange you encounter in public. Most of the current trans-panic in the conservative world only makes it more likely that they will be met with hostility or violence at any moment.

By contrast, actual teens today are constantly bombarded with hyper-sexual and gender-normative messaging. Who are the popular kids? Cheerleaders and football players. And all the other "cute" and "handsome" ones. What messages do teens get on Instagram and advertising and Disney? Look at the sizes of the fashion and cosmetics industries. I would venture to guess that FAR more teen girls are seeking breast augmentation surgery, botox, cosmetic dentistry, liposuction, and other procedures to conform to societal notions of female beauty than are seeking medical interventions for transgender reasons. For example, botox for 13 year olds: https://www.theguardian.com/global/2019 ... mi-adegoke

And without looking up the actual numbers I would guess that far more teen girls suffer from anorexia, bulimia, and other eating disorders in a desire to conform to stereotypical (hetero) notions of female attractiveness than seek transgender care of any kind. That is what being a girl is actually like today, not a bunch of LGBT "groomers" lurking around seeking to convert them into a life of transgenderism.

My own daughter didn't want to try out for school volleyball because she was uncomfortable with the tight shorts that are part of the uniform.
She thought it was too sexualized. On the other hand, it seems that school basketball for girls is on the decline while soccer is on the rise and one reason frequently cited by girls is that girls basketball unforms are ugly and unsexy while soccer uniforms are much more "cute". Seriously. https://www.wsj.com/articles/girls-high ... 1663645280 if you can't read it here are two relevant excerpts.

Two decades ago, girls’ basketball was the queen of high school sports. Nearly half a million players crowded into gyms nationwide, and schools carried packed rosters of varsity, JV and freshman teams.

But last school year, basketball dropped to the fourth-most-popular girls’ sport by participation, according to the data released this month by the National Federation of State High School Associations. Girls’ basketball has lost 19% of its players since 2002, while the top girls’ sport, track and field, grew 10%, along with volleyball (+15%) and soccer (+27%).

Shelby Gliebe, head coach at New Albany (Ind.) High, said the program halted junior-varsity play around midseason last year because of dwindling numbers. It was a dramatic step for a school with an enrollment of 1,800, and a program that had won the 1999 big-school state championship.

In the age of Instagram and TikTok, basketball also suffers in comparison with sports perceived to be “girlier,” Gliebe said.

“I think the biggest reason for girls not participating in basketball, and I know this is silly: It’s not a ‘cute’ sport,” said Gliebe, mentioning the skirts worn in tennis and the spandex shorts worn in volleyball and running. She said she hopes the practice of WNBA players wearing glamorous outfits into arenas helps the game appeal more to teenagers.

Being a kid is hard these days but it's always been hard. They face all kinds of threats. But the risk that some ordinary heterosexual kid might be sucked involuntarily into an LGBT life because of societal influences is not something I would put in the top 20 or even top 100 list of threats facing today's teens. This is an enormous and vast country. Does that mean it never happens? No. I'm sure you can find and elevate individual examples. But the seem very few and far between. So of all the risks facing my youngest daughter (who is the only one under age 18) the idea that she might be recruited away to be LGBT is not one of them. We spend a whole lot more time making the opposite effort (getting her to tone down her dress and pay less attention to boys).

[Soloist]

Ken, do you know what happens if someone expresses that they think they are transgender to a mental health professional? I’m happy it’s not a problem for you. I’m not happy that you fail to see the implications of not measuring up to Disney princess or wanting to distance yourself from looking like the men on tv.

[Josh]

It's illegal in almost all states (including my own) to give any counselling to an LGBT-questioning person other than strongly affirming transition or adopting a homosexual identity. I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept to pick up and understand.

Once again, a "fact" that you just invented out of thin air. Do you not yet understand that it destroys your credibility to just make up your own facts out of thin air?

Ken, the fact that conversion therapy laws prevent psychiatrists, counsellors, and psychologists from engaging in, well, conversion therapy is not a particularly controversial fact, nor is it one I need to support with endless citations and sources.

[Josh]

This is one of those things that is quite hard to prove to someone who is antagonistic. but every psych provider, and therapist knows what's on the line if they violate standard of care. And the standards are changing quite rapidly.

I'm guessing that standard of care is more relevant than state law here, but I could be wrong. Googling "standard of care transgender teens" pulls up a bunch of things that seem relevant. I haven't had time to read them carefully.

Standard-of-care is indeed required to practice counselling or practice medicine.

For example, the standard of care for someone presenting with symptoms of appendicitis is to schedule a CT scan and then send someone in for an appendectomy. If I'm a medical doctor but I instead prescribe someone a soothing herbal tea, I am not following the standard of care and will find myself in very hot water if that patient (or their family) decides to sue me.

Interestingly, some of the states with Republican governors and legislatures who are campaigning about passing laws for the "culture wars" indeed did pass, quite a few years ago, laws against conversion therapy. So in theory, the laws are eventually going to conflict with themselves.

[silentreader]

Meanwhile in Canada...

https://educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/conv ... %20therapy