Then they came for the Amish ...

[Robert]

I think most of us recognize that sex has a number of purposes and it's not just about procreation. But it's always fun to tell Josh that he's wrong.

In Josh's church do the bishops monitor women's menstrual cycles and only allow sex during the fertility window from 5 days before ovulation until the day after? And then only if no birth control is being used?

Don't you think it is inappropriate for two white sis dudes to talk about female issues, unless either of you want to identify as a female, then it is acceptable. So either of you want to make that claim? If not, then you should not be talking about female issues. Not my rule. This is the rule of the progressives.

[Ken]

I think most of us recognize that sex has a number of purposes and it's not just about procreation. But it's always fun to tell Josh that he's wrong.

In Josh's church do the bishops monitor women's menstrual cycles and only allow sex during the fertility window from 5 days before ovulation until the day after? And then only if no birth control is being used?

Don't you think it is inappropriate for two white sis dudes to talk about female issues, unless either of you want to identify as a female, then it is acceptable. So either of you want to make that claim? If not, then you should not be talking about female issues. Not my rule. This is the rule of the progressives.

Josh essentially claimed upstream that God only intended for sex to be used to produce children.

I am just wondering if his church shares that view and enforces it. What I described would be the logically consistent application of that point of view.

[Grace]

In Josh's church do the bishops monitor women's menstrual cycles and only allow sex during the fertility window from 5 days before ovulation until the day after? And then only if no birth control is being used?

Inappropriate, but a typical condescending post from you.

[Josh]

God’s design and plan for man is that men and women should be married to each other before having children. And God’s design is also that sexual activity, generally speaking, results in having children.

Please feel free to explain how sexual activity does not, generally speaking, result in pregnancy and having children. This is extremely apparent from a simple reading of the Old Testament.

If this weren’t the case, there would not be widespread birth control.

[Soloist]

This was actually a taught practice in the early church.

[Ken]

God’s design and plan for man is that men and women should be married to each other before having children. And God’s design is also that sexual activity, generally speaking, results in having children.

Please feel free to explain how sexual activity does not, generally speaking, result in pregnancy and having children.

Simple math.

Take any average couple and divide the number of children they have by the number of times they have had sex during their marriage and you will find the percentage of times that sex resulted in pregnancy and having children. I suspect it is the rare couple for whom that percentage even approaches 10%. Statistically speaking I would suggest that "generally speaking" most sex doesn't result in pregnancy and children. And if we want to drill down some more, I would further suggest that most sex happens outside of the fertility window which is only about 6-7 days per month. So any sex during the other 24 or so days during the month "generally speaking" does not result in pregnancy and children.

[Robert]

I am just wondering if his church shares that view and enforces it. What I described would be the logically consistent application of that point of view.

Again, you, as a middle aged sis white man, means you can not talk about female issues. Live by the rules of your progressives. Identify as a female and you may continue.

[Robert]

Simple math.

Take any average couple and divide the number of children they have by the number of times they have had sex during their marriage and you will find the percentage of times that sex resulted in pregnancy and having children. I suspect it is the rare couple for whom that percentage even approaches 10%. Statistically speaking I would suggest that "generally speaking" most sex doesn't result in pregnancy and children. And if we want to drill down some more, I would further suggest that most sex happens outside of the fertility window which is only about 6-7 days per month. So any sex during the other 24 or so days during the month "generally speaking" does not result in pregnancy and children.

I agree with your math, but intent is important too. Most people do not focus nor track fertility times. Most married people know their actions will produce children. Children they will have to care and provide for.

In baseball, few batters hit over 30%, but they plan to hit the ball every time they get there. That does not mean they are not at bat just because most of the time they will not hit the ball.

[Ken]

Simple math.

Take any average couple and divide the number of children they have by the number of times they have had sex during their marriage and you will find the percentage of times that sex resulted in pregnancy and having children. I suspect it is the rare couple for whom that percentage even approaches 10%. Statistically speaking I would suggest that "generally speaking" most sex doesn't result in pregnancy and children. And if we want to drill down some more, I would further suggest that most sex happens outside of the fertility window which is only about 6-7 days per month. So any sex during the other 24 or so days during the month "generally speaking" does not result in pregnancy and children.

I agree with your math, but intent is important too. Most people do not focus nor track fertility times. Most married people know their actions will produce children. Children they will have to care and provide for.

In baseball, few batters hit over 30%, but they plan to hit the ball every time they get there. That does not mean they are not at bat just because most of the time they will not hit the ball.

What Josh is doing is making the common argument I hear from some conservative Christians that unmarried people, gay people, etc. should not have sex because the only purpose of sex is reproduction and that is reserved for marriage.

That argument falls apart because married couples clearly have a LOT more sex than what is necessary for human reproduction. And they have a whole lot of sex that cannot result in reproduction because it is outside fertility windows, they use contraception, they continue to have sex after the woman has already gotten pregnant, one or both couples is infertile, the couple is post menopause, etc.

People also have sex because they have sexual desire and get pleasure from it as Paul admits in 1 Corinthians 7:8-9. So in reality married people don't just have sex for procreation, they have sex for pleasure and satiate passion and sexual urges as well. Everyone know this and to pretend otherwise is to be dishonest about the whole thing. There may be couples for whom sex is simply a chore that they only do in order to have children and nothing more. But I suspect they are very much in the minority. Especially men. The bigger problem is probably the opposite. That many people are tempted by desire to be unfaithful, addicted to porn, etc.

So the real argument is that sex is NOT just for reproduction, but also about passion, sexual desire, and pleasure. But nevertheless it is still only reserved for married heterosexual couples and single people, gay people etc. are not allowed to enjoy or experience any of it. That is an argument Christians can and do make and wield scripture to make it. But it is a harder argument to make to single people who can't find spouses and gay people generally. And it comes across as sort of hypocritical, especially if you are also telling gay people they can't get married either. Or if you are making it to people who don't share your particular interpretation of Christianity.

[Soloist]

Thus the main objection comes up.
Sex outside of marriage is sin and it’s a serious stretch to interpret it any other way.