Gender confusion

[nett]

I'm curious how often in regular, everyday conversations have you had conversations where you use nomenclature like "cis-gender." I've hardly ever had conversations like that -- when they've happened, it's been in specific contexts and with specific people.

Oh, I have a recurrent conversation with two people I know well. They want to explain to me what gender is, and that it's not just male and female. They explain the difference between gender identity and the identity assigned to them at birth, as though I hadn't heard this, including from them.

I ask what they mean by "assigned to them", ask if you can't just look at the body or test the chromosomes and tell, ask who they think assigns a gender. I ask if this isn't something actually rooted in the body and in biology. And I ask, if this isn't what determines gender, what is?

They then tell me about gender identity as though it were a scientific concept, and I ask how you can test for gender identity. I say that the old theory was that you weren't comfortable with your birth gender, you should learn to become comfortable with it. The new theory is that you need to find yoru gender identity, changing your body if need be. And I ask how you could tell which theory is right?

During the whole conversation, I keep hearing that I, as a cisgender male, need to work hard to understand these things. So it's not a useful conversation, and I try to avoid repeating it. But they also really want me to fully embrace and affirm their trans identities. It's not enough to say that I love them and care about them, they say I can't really do that without embracing their trans identity. I tell them I don't insist that they embrace my straight maleness, but that doesn't connect either.

So this is raw for me.

This is very sad, I’m sorry you’re going through this.

[Ken]

I'm curious how often in regular, everyday conversations have you had conversations where you use nomenclature like "cis-gender." I've hardly ever had conversations like that -- when they've happened, it's been in specific contexts and with specific people.

Oh, I have a recurrent conversation with two people I know well. They want to explain to me what gender is, and that it's not just male and female. They explain the difference between gender identity and the identity assigned to them at birth, as though I hadn't heard this, including from them.

I ask what they mean by "assigned to them", ask if you can't just look at the body or test the chromosomes and tell, ask who they think assigns a gender. I ask if this isn't something actually rooted in the body and in biology. And I ask, if this isn't what determines gender, what is?

They then tell me about gender identity as though it were a scientific concept, and I ask how you can test for gender identity. I say that the old theory was that you weren't comfortable with your birth gender, you should learn to become comfortable with it. The new theory is that you need to find yoru gender identity, changing your body if need be. And I ask how you could tell which theory is right?

During the whole conversation, I keep hearing that I, as a cisgender male, need to work hard to understand these things. So it's not a useful conversation, and I try to avoid repeating it. But they also really want me to fully embrace and affirm their trans identities. It's not enough to say that I love them and care about them, they say I can't really do that without embracing their trans identity. I tell them I don't insist that they embrace my straight maleness, but that doesn't connect either.

So this is raw for me.

I'm obviously one of the more liberal ones here. But I find this sort of demand to embrace the identities of others to be tiresome. And it is not at all limited to LGBT issues. People around me in my church, workplace, and community are constantly making life choices that I may agree with or disagree with. I don't feel I have to embrace all of their choices in order to respect their rights to make such choices. It is a little bit different for people who are very close to me compared to people I don't know. But even then...

I don't have any LGBT children but my oldest daughter who is quite involved in Baptist-flavored local evangelical community church has chosen to get a couple of small tattoos over the years since turning 18. One or two small ones of a religious flavor, and one embracing her Hispanic heritage. She wants me to embrace her choice which sorry, no. I'm not going to do. But I'm also willing to respect that she is now 24 years old and capable of making her own decisions. And so I'm not going to assert my authority over her by cutting her off financially or trying to punish her or otherwise show my disapproval. She is still my kid and I love her unconditionally even if I don't fully embrace all of her life choices. I also recognize that times change and my generations values and aesthetics are different from the next generation. And their kids will be different still and challenge them in whole new ways.

I view LGBT issues the same way. I don't feel the need to embrace all of their choices (or identities as the case may be) while still respecting the fact that they have the right to make them and it isn't my place to try to undermine them. If there is someone in my life who I am close to who wants me to educate myself and reach some higher level of understanding about their identity, I may seek to do that out of love and respect with no ultimate promise about what conclusions I will reach. But I will generally respect their choices and identity even if I don't fully embrace it. It is exhausting and ultimately self-defeating to go through life in constant disapproval of everyone around me.

[Bootstrap]

You don't believe people who are LGBTQ are human?

i’m not sure how i could have been more clear about this

Here's what you said:

But I think a lot of LGBTQ would also like to be left alone and live their lives in ways that you and I do not agree with.
They aren't doing that to destroy us, they are doing that because that's how they want to live.

^^you’re describing THE BEAST of the organized political bloc, not human, not humane, which EXPLOITS those it claims to represent, for self-serving power+riches. it’s now ‘way out of control. too many allowed it, supported it, voted for it. it’s evil.

I find these dehumanizing fear and hate narratives alarming. That kind of thing has enabled a whole lot of ugliness throughout human history. This is not how Jesus dealt with sinners.

[Bootstrap]

But I think a lot of LGBTQ would also like to be left alone and live their lives in ways that you and I do not agree with. They aren't doing that to destroy us, they are doing that because that's how they want to live.

Baloney. I don’t believe it. That’s the 20 years ago line they were selling. It’s not their current message at all.

Edit: you say a “lot”. Maybe so. But if so, the few are the ones driving and controlling the national victim narrative and social conversation then.

I wonder how many gay people you know, and how well you know them. Most gay people I know fit the description I gave above. And they see the kind of narratives I'm objecting to quite frequently, dehumanizing fear and hate narratives.

Put yourself in their shoes. Remember that they have faced much more persecution in this country over the years than Christians have. As far as I can tell, most aren't looking for payback, but I suspect they might respond differently to Jesus than they would to political Christianity in this country.

[Ken]

But I think a lot of LGBTQ would also like to be left alone and live their lives in ways that you and I do not agree with. They aren't doing that to destroy us, they are doing that because that's how they want to live.

Baloney. I don’t believe it. That’s the 20 years ago line they were selling. It’s not their current message at all.

Edit: you say a “lot”. Maybe so. But if so, the few are the ones driving and controlling the national victim narrative and social conversation then.

I wonder how many gay people you know, and how well you know them. Most gay people I know fit the description I gave above. And they see the kind of narratives I'm objecting to quite frequently, dehumanizing fear and hate narratives.

Put yourself in their shoes. Remember that they have faced much more persecution in this country over the years than Christians have. As far as I can tell, most aren't looking for payback, but I suspect they might respond differently to Jesus than they would to political Christianity in this country.

There are aggressively fringe people in every walk of life and subculture. Sure there are aggressively transgressive LBTQ types who delight in getting into people's faces but they don't represent anything but a small minority. And most LGBT people just want to be left along to lead their lives.

Just like you can also find aggressively fringe Christians and Christian groups who delight in being in-your-face with their street preaching and demonstrations. The Westboro Baptist Church folks, for example. Or the Black Hebrew Israelites in NYC. But they also only represent a tiny fraction of Christians, most of whom don't share their views and behaviors.

Both the flamboyantly transgressive LGBT folks and the extremist fringe religious groups command outsize media attention relative to their numbers because that is their intention. And in a free society it is best to largely just ignore them rather than take the bait.

[ohio jones]

You don't believe people who are LGBTQ are human?

i’m not sure how i could have been more clear about this

Here's what you said:

But I think a lot of LGBTQ would also like to be left alone and live their lives in ways that you and I do not agree with.
They aren't doing that to destroy us, they are doing that because that's how they want to live.

^^you’re describing THE BEAST of the organized political bloc, not human, not humane, which EXPLOITS those it claims to represent, for self-serving power+riches. it’s now ‘way out of control. too many allowed it, supported it, voted for it. it’s evil.

Well, she did change the subject and could have been more clear about that. You were talking about individual humans; she started talking about an "organized political bloc" which, while composed of humans, is not itself a human entity. If it's worth responding it's worth reading her carefully, but I do realize that can be challenging due to the unconventional style.

[Bootstrap]

i’m not sure how i could have been more clear about this

Here's what you said:

But I think a lot of LGBTQ would also like to be left alone and live their lives in ways that you and I do not agree with.
They aren't doing that to destroy us, they are doing that because that's how they want to live.

^^you’re describing THE BEAST of the organized political bloc, not human, not humane, which EXPLOITS those it claims to represent, for self-serving power+riches. it’s now ‘way out of control. too many allowed it, supported it, voted for it. it’s evil.

Well, she did change the subject and could have been more clear about that. You were talking about individual humans; she started talking about an "organized political bloc" which, while composed of humans, is not itself a human entity. If it's worth responding it's worth reading her carefully, but I do realize that can be challenging due to the unconventional style.

I kind of assumed that "you're describing" referred to what I was describing in the paragraph she quoted.

I imagine, if she had stopped to think, she wouldn't have said that. But I doubt that this language comes from quiet, thoughtful reflection. It's contagious. And dehumanizing.

[Bootstrap]

(i think) what you describe is how THE POLITICAL ENTITY has a not-human life of its own, no soul, no shame,
which harms those it noisily claims to represent. For me it’s deeply important to separate the human from the not-human entity.

Organized political blocs+cults are not of Jesus Christ. They are bad actors.

I agree with both of these statements.

But I also think that the most visible face of Christianity to most non-Christians comes from organized political blocs+cults. And that some people on MN are reluctant to criticize that.

So we need to turn away from the bad actors and turn toward Jesus Christ. That's really one of the central points in much of what I write. People are right to say that liberal churches need to do that, but not only liberal churches. As Christians in the Kingdom of God, how should we respond like Jesus Christ in this situation? It's a question I ask constantly.

[temporal1]

Well, she did change the subject and could have been more clear about that. You were talking about individual humans; she started talking about an "organized political bloc" which, while composed of humans, is not itself a human entity. If it's worth responding it's worth reading her carefully, but I do realize that can be challenging due to the unconventional style.

This forum has several especially good readers, you are one.
i’m not sure about my “unconventional style” (except, i avoid capital letters. and, i “break up” thoughts - originally, due to vision problems, but, grew to prefer it, it helps me not miss points i might overlook). At one point, Knight suggested my writing might be influenced by my high school Shakespeare! i appreciated his unique observations. Knight has to be a master-level reader.

i’m not a good judge. My writing just seems normal to me. Too many words. i’ve tried to improve.

Just above, RZehr made note of the phenom, and in another thread, Grace also did (each in their own words).

My words for it ATTEMPT to point to the grave problem of organized political blocs, because, via gov, they wield extraordinary power (which, in my view, screws up everything). It definitely harms Jesus’ way.

To ignore/dismiss the blocs+lobbyists is to underestimate them, which they LOVE, and exploit. They have law degrees and are dead-serious about prevailing. Gov enables the tail, which then gets to wag the dog.

Yes, they are the numerical minority. But, thru organized politics they become “the face” and “the bullies.”
A lot of people recognize this. More+more, “traditional” homosexuals see it. Trans-ing children is a breaking point for many.

In my view, it’s important to identify them (the ENTITIES) sort them out for what they are, and reject them.

Clearly, lots of people have not given a thought to this sort of discernment, thus the very notion is dismissed and damned.
That’s sad. In ignorance, the problems are bound to worsen.

[temporal1]

(i think) what you describe is how THE POLITICAL ENTITY has a not-human life of its own, no soul, no shame,
which harms those it noisily claims to represent. For me it’s deeply important to separate the human from the not-human entity.

Organized political blocs+cults are not of Jesus Christ. They are bad actors.

I agree with both of these statements.

But I also think that the most visible face of Christianity to most non-Christians comes from organized political blocs+cults.

And that some people on MN are reluctant to criticize that. .. ..

If i’m reading correctly, just above, RZehr referred to the problem, also today, in another thread, Grace referred to the problem, HK shares great content on it. i do my best. i guess i need an interpreter.

P.21 / Grace
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... &start=200

Correction. i probably misunderstood you.
Your reference is to “Christian organized blocs?” .. i know nothing about them.
If you have a problem with them, do you go to them with questions/criticisms? i find them easy to ignore.
i do not lose sleep over what other Christians do.

.. in my life, i’ve never been a political party member, nor joined a political bloc, for any cause.
organizing is about political power+wealth, it easily gets out of hand.

i’m grateful for some, for instance, March for Life, Save the Storks, and others, but have not joined.

i’m unlikely to get in a struggle between rival organized political blocs! they lost me at “organized” and “political.”