As Christians, what kind of government do we fear?

[HondurasKeiser]

A fascinating 2006 conversation about the problems of democracy and our American idolization of 'rights' can be found on Mars Hill Audio Friday Features app between host, Ken Meyers and Robert Kraynak

[Bootstrap]

I don’t have much time at the moment to discuss. However, as most conservative, plain, Mennonites might be - I (having never met you, admittedly), would consider you to be quite assimilated, and enjoying a much greater degree of insulation from liberal persecution, particularly living, as I understand, in a red state. I think your thinking is nearer to a run of the mill Democrat (whatever that is anymore) than you do with plain conservative Mennonites.

I can't tell you how weird that seems to me. But I know that's how some plain Mennonites would view it. The Christian martyrs under the Nazis or under the Communists did not dress differently than other Germans. They probably ate the same things for breakfast. I wonder if Dietrich Bonhoeffer would look assimilated to you. The East Berlin church that I joined when the Wall fell dressed like the people around them, but they were investigated by the Stasi, and they did not back down. Were they "assimilated"?

Berlin is largely a post-Christian place, most people found my Christianity strange, old-fashioned, narrow-minded. But in West Berlin I could safely be a Christian and I could safely say things they found strange. In East Berlin, there would have been consequences. In some authoritarian countries, I could be killed for that kind of thing. I'm pretty sure the West Germany government would look quite liberal to you, but it was not authoritarian, it allowed people to have different views.

I think my Christianity was more foreign to most Germans than my American culture. They were comfortable with cultural Christianity - Bach and Luther and cathedrals and literary traditions - but that was different.

I don’t think you have much idea at all what it would be like to be a conservative, plain, separate Mennonite in Denmark or the Netherlands at all. And I would agree that for you, these countries might very likely leave you alone. After all, what do you want to do or not do that they disagree with?
And it makes sense to me that you would feel more threatened by the far right.

For us, the biggest issue was that we could not legally home school our children in Germany. I think that would be an issue for you too. And you're right, I never met a plain Mennonite in Germany or in the Netherlands, but I did meet plain Russian Christians, mostly Pietists and immigrants who had fled persecution in Russia, who really stood out. They were able to practice their faith. There was a huge difference between West Germany and the Russia that they had fled.

I haven't seen a whole lot of real religious persecution in my lifetime in West Germany or the United States. Nothing like what we saw under the Nazis or Communism before the fall of the Wall. Nothing like what we see in China or the Middle East or some African and Asian countries today.

But from the way people talk, it sometimes sounds like they can't tell the difference.

[Bootstrap]

I can assure you that on the west coast, there isn’t any plain conservatives that I know, who are being specifically threatened by any Republicans. If you were to bring up “threat to democracy” or authoritarianism, well, the pyramid says that near term basic safety comes before some possible uncertain future threat, right?

So while I agree that we would likely suffer under a right wing patriotic Hitler, that is merely a possibility at this point. While in the deep blue states, we have much more immediate things to worry about, things that are being done by far left activists and politicians.

Oh, and all that vaunted tolerance that a liberal society brays about? Fast going the way of the dodo. We need more of their “tolerance” like Custer needed more Indians.

Do you know plain Mennonites who are being threatened for their faith in Oregon? Facing persecution like we read about when we read about the faithful witness of Christians?

I think there is a LOT more political violence than religious persecution in the United States now, and on both sides. And it's not the government.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/pushed-ex ... nd-protest

There has been a significant rise in the number of domestic terrorist attacks and plots at demonstrations in the United States, according to new CSIS data. The result is escalating violence in U.S. cities between extremists from opposing sides, a major break from historical trends. In 2021, over half of all domestic terrorist incidents occurred in the context of metropolitan demonstrations. In addition, the most frequent targets of attacks were government, military, and law enforcement agencies, who are increasingly at the center of domestic terrorism by extremists of all ideologies.

To me, it often feels like some people (not you) are saying that as long as extremism is right-wing, it is no threat, no matter how many reports and studies say that it is.

To me, extremism is the real threat, whether on the left or the right. And extremism is fed by the partisanship that basically encourages people to hate on those who disagree with them. No good Mennonite or Anabaptist, plain or not, should be sympathetic to that stuff. It's completely against our values.

This is a pretty good summary of the current picture of domestic extremism as I understand it:

First, there was a significant increase in the number and percentage of domestic terrorist incidents at demonstrations in cities in 2020 and 2021. In 2019, only 2 percent of all U.S. terrorist attacks and plots occurred at demonstrations, but this portion rose to 47 percent in 2020 and 53 percent in 2021. The result is that some metropolitan areas of the United States—such as Portland, Seattle, New York, Los Angeles, and Washington, D.C.—are becoming focal points of domestic terrorism, where extremists from opposing sides square off against each other and against law enforcement agencies. This development has created a “security dilemma” in metropolitan areas, where attempts by one side to improve its own security threatens the security of others, leading to further escalation.

Second, U.S. law enforcement agencies have increasingly become a target of domestic terrorists from all sides of the political spectrum. The government, military, and especially law enforcement were the primary targets of domestic terrorist attacks and plots in 2021, composing 43 percent of all attacks. They were most likely to be targeted regardless of perpetrator ideology: they were selected in 48 percent of violent far-left events, 37 percent of violent far-right events, and all Salafi-jihadist events in 2021. This development indicates that U.S. security agencies—particularly law enforcement—are increasingly at risk from domestic terrorism.

Third, there was an increase in the percentage of attacks and plots by anarchists, anti-fascists, and other likeminded extremists in 2021. While white supremacists, anti-government militias, and likeminded extremists conducted the most attacks and plots in 2021 (49 percent), the percentage of attacks and plots by anarchists, anti-fascists, and likeminded extremists grew from 23 percent in 2020 to 40 percent in 2021. This rise has occurred alongside an increase in violence at demonstrations. However, although there was a historically high level of both far-right and far-left terrorist attacks in 2021, violent far-right incidents were significantly more likely to be lethal, both in terms of weapon choice and number of resulting fatalities.

[Bootstrap]

In the CSIS report, they also discuss the motivations. I reformatted part of this paragraph as a list.

When discussing perpetrator ideologies, it is important to note that extremist ideologies do not correspond to mainstream political parties in the United States.

• Violent far-right terrorists are generally motivated by ideas of racial or ethnic supremacy; opposition to government authority, including perceived overreach related to issues such as Covid-19 policies; misogyny, including incels (“involuntary celibates”); hatred based on sexuality or gender identity; belief in the QAnon conspiracy theory; or opposition to certain policies, such as abortion.
• Violent far-left terrorists are motivated by an opposition to capitalism, imperialism, or colonialism; Black nationalism; support for environmental causes or animal rights; pro-communist or pro-socialist beliefs; or support for decentralized political and social systems, such as anarchism.
• Religious terrorists are motivated by a faith-based belief system, such as Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, or other faiths. All attacks recorded in the CSIS data set that were coded as religious were inspired by a Salafi-jihadist ideology, so the terms are used interchangeably in this analysis.
• Ethnonationalist terrorists are motivated by ethnic or nationalist goals, including self-determination.

[Soloist]

Boot, you wouldn’t accept any examples given to you anyway as true persecution. Most conservatives would completely agree with RZehr.
The church I attended there in Oregon was burned down twice, had locks put on it, had a member threatened to be tarred and feathered, had the church building shot at. Persecution travels in waves but systematically Christianity is being attacked little by little again. It’s getting harder for the Portland street meetings to even happen.

Most of the conservatives are protected from job related persecution which I have faced, and the same is mostly true for school having them private.

[barnhart]

What would this question look like to the historic black church.

[Bootstrap]

Boot, you wouldn’t accept any examples given to you anyway as true persecution. Most conservatives would completely agree with RZehr.

You give a real example below. That's what I'm asking for - real examples that are religious persecution.

The church I attended there in Oregon was burned down twice, had locks put on it, had a member threatened to be tarred and feathered, had the church building shot at. Persecution travels in waves but systematically Christianity is being attacked little by little again. It’s getting harder for the Portland street meetings to even happen.

I believe you. I hadn't heard about this. Do you know anything about who is doing this and why?

Obviously, black churches have faced burnings and shootings from people who hate them too. That's the kind of violence against churches that I am most familiar with. And those people have been mostly right-wing extremists. Again, I think the "extremist" part is the real threat, not left versus right.

Most of the conservatives are protected from job related persecution which I have faced, and the same is mostly true for school having them private.

I was almost fired because I wouldn't teach a workshop for the American military. Someone in the leadership of the company knew I was a Mennonite and contacted me before that went through, asking if I had religious objections, then told the Board, so I didn't get fired. (I had told my boss that I had religious objections, that's when he decided to fire me, he lost an important contract due to this.)

[Bootstrap]

Googling for church burnings in Oregon, this came up:

Harrisburg Mennonite Church in Harrisburg, Oregon on July 21, 1948. The old Harrisburg Mennonite Church was burned by those objecting to Conscientious Objectors.

So long before what Soloist is talking about ... but interesting to think about.

[temporal1]

What would this question look like to the historic black church.

is this about Christianity, or race?
i’ve never witnessed or experienced anything like this (in numerous black or ethnic churches near me) also, COs may be questioned/criticized, but i’ve not been aware of physical attacks near me - reports of incidents elsewhere sometimes appear. (just as reports of attacks on synagogues and mosques sometimes appear.)

the new problem with the phrase “far right” is, it’s being overused and now often sweeps up all of Christianity in overuse.
that’s a problem, it will not lead to anything beneficial.

the problem with both the left, and far left, wrt Christianity may not be physical attacks, but internal corrosion of scriptural Truth.
damaged buildings can be rebuilt. lies empty pews leaving buildings intact but empty.

[RZehr]

What would this question look like to the historic black church.

Perhaps a Confederate government. And even further back, in Africa, any American government.