Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Ken]

There are plenty of legitimate sources for this, published before 2022. It is not "Russian propaganda" and it is in fact quite disturbing that now you want to deny the atrocities conducted against ethnic Russians (who were nonetheless Ukrainian citizens), by other Ukrainian citizens who belong to extreme-far-right militias. I am frankly shocked that you would want to defend these groups.

In other words, no. He can't provide such a source. But he knows a lot of very strong adjectives.

I’ve provided sources before, and I’m not going to do your research for you.

Boot did do research and he provided his sources. His research and various sources concluded that you are wrong

[Bootstrap]

I'm telling the truth and the facts according to the best of my knowledge.

If you can engage with these facts and provide better evidence, you might be able to change my mind. But strong adjectives are not strong evidence. You seem to believe Putin is telling the truth about a bunch of things that seem false to me. If you have strong evidence for these claims, please provide it, just as I have provided evidence for my claims.

We both know that the world is swimming in war propaganda. The only way through that fog is either (1) to avoid trying to know all the answers, or (2) to really work hard to stick to verifiable fact. Actually, the best course of action may be to do both.

But somehow you just know that the Ukraine is completely innocent, and Russia did all the bad things.

Completely innocent? No. But Russia is clearly the military aggressor. And the international community never believed all the claims Russia made to justify their invasion.

Ukraine decided - twice - that they don't want Russia to rule it. Russia decided military intervention was the proper response, first by taking Crimea, then invading Donbas in 2014. This is just more of the same, but escalating it.

I can't wait to hear about your defense of the Asov battalion. Let me guess, Bellingcat has a report that says they're not really neo-nazis, and actually nice people.

You won't see me defending the Azov Batallion, certainly not in its early days. But you won't see me defending the Russian war crimes in the Donbas either. Both sides clearly committed atrocities in 2014-2016. Here's one useful report that seems balanced to me:

“You Don’t Exist”: Arbitrary Detentions, Enforced Disappearances, and Torture in Eastern Ukraine

Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch investigated in detail nine cases of arbitrary, prolonged detention of civilians by the Ukrainian authorities in informal detention sites and nine cases of arbitrary, prolonged detention of civilians by Russia backed separatists. This report details cases that took place mostly in 2015 and the first half of 2016.

Like most reports from reliable third parties, this report finds atrocities on both sides in the Donbas during that time. Best way to avoid war atrocities is to not have a war. Best way to not have a war is to not invade neighboring countries.

This war started in 2014, not in 2022. And nothing Russia has done since then shows a high regard for the lives of people who live in the Donbas. They aren't coming in as a humanitarian peacekeeping force.

[Josh]

In other words, no. He can't provide such a source. But he knows a lot of very strong adjectives.

I’ve provided sources before, and I’m not going to do your research for you.

Boot did do research and he provided his sources. His research and various sources concluded that you are wrong

Ken, we’ve been playing this game for years, now. I provide sources and they are picked apart. There is no point in me wasting time, because folks like you don’t care about unbiased sources.

You simply pick sources that make statements that agree with the conclusions you want them to have, and then accuse anyone who disagrees with that of rejecting science, of fake news, of lying. It’s very tiresome, and your lack of perspective makes you have basically one valuable role on this forum - highlighting just how evil and capricious the liberal viewpoint is. You are the kind of person that would gladly spy on their neighbours, report them to the secret police, and send them to the gulags.

[Ken]

I’ve provided sources before, and I’m not going to do your research for you.

Boot did do research and he provided his sources. His research and various sources concluded that you are wrong

Ken, we’ve been playing this game for years, now. I provide sources and they are picked apart. There is no point in me wasting time, because folks like you don’t care about unbiased sources.

You simply pick sources that make statements that agree with the conclusions you want them to have, and then accuse anyone who disagrees with that of rejecting science, of fake news, of lying. It’s very tiresome, and your lack of perspective makes you have basically one valuable role on this forum - highlighting just how evil and capricious the liberal viewpoint is. You are the kind of person that would gladly spy on their neighbours, report them to the secret police, and send them to the gulags.

Because you are unable to support your assertions with any sort of evidence that makes me someone who would send my neighbors to the gulag? Would that be a Russian gulag then?

Way to win the argument Josh.

[Josh]

Because you are unable to support your assertions with any sort of evidence that makes me someone who would send my neighbors to the gulag? Would that be a Russian gulag then?

Way to win the argument Josh.

Yes, Ken. Over and over, you accuse me of being a Russian propagandist; of being being duped by Putin; essentially, of being an "enemy of the state".

Ironically, this is exactly the kind of thing at the KGB was adept at, which is where Putin had the bulk of experience in his career.

[Ernie]

Interesting charts on who believes Russia and who believes NATO.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... poll-finds

[temporal1]

Interesting charts on who believes Russia and who believes NATO.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... poll-finds

Even to a remote person (like me) it’s been clear from Feb 24, the West, with its magnificent propaganda machine, has no interest in resolution. (i’ve just been learning, this build-up to war was going on, and was known to those involved, leaders+citizens, Ukraine, NATO, the West, Russia, for some time.) When Zelensky whistled, it was for a prepared mega-war machine, that eagerly complied.

Feb 24 was not comparable to Pearl Harbor or 9-11-01. There was no surprise.

Zelensky+Ukraine do not appear to be in control of their response.
Months ago, when resolution was at hand between Putin+Z, it was oddly met with crickets. (Ernie’s report^^ adds details about who is making decisions.)

Btw. Maybe it’s past time to go back to Feb 24, to figure out what Russia was doing? The West immediately dug in that this was a full-on invasion. An easy sale. Was it? Russia claimed it was a peacekeeping effort. Was it? If Russia had not been met with violence, would they have been violent? (Russia anticipated unrest over Ukraine’s eastern regions.) Russia went in with guns. Did they go in with guns-blazing? (The U.S. never goes anywhere without guns, either.) Guns-blazing is a different matter.

What about UN/US peacekeeping missions?? We LOVE the concept of peacekeeping. But. “All that glitters” ..
Secular “Peacekeepers” are armed. (Jesus’ peace makers are not.)

Who decides what is (military) peacekeeping and what is military aggression??
For instance: What’s happening now in Haiti? .. The U.S. Coast Guard .. Homeland Security .. Armed Peacekeepers?

[nett]

Interesting charts on who believes Russia and who believes NATO.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... poll-finds

I wonder how this will change as the lights turn off, and the pipes freeze in Europe.

[temporal1]

Interesting charts on who believes Russia and who believes NATO.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... poll-finds

I wonder how this will change as the lights turn off, and the pipes freeze in Europe.

In the Nord Stream thread, Page 5 / http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... 0&start=40

i read, in Comments in the Gravitas video (from memory) ..
Germany rejects Putin’s offer, not Germans.

We are about to find out.

[Bootstrap]

You are the kind of person that would gladly spy on their neighbours, report them to the secret police, and send them to the gulags.

You wrote that to Ken. The two of you are disagreeing on the Internet, in the safety of your homes. I don't think gulags are involved. Some of your exchanges may be a waste of time, but you decide what you want to spend your time on.

Be glad you aren't in Russia. I was part of a church in East Germany that had dealings with the secret police, I share your concerns, and I hope we never have that here in America. But if it comes, we may find ourselves in the same gulags.

Russia will send you to jail for up to 15 years if you protest the war or report news that disagrees with their official propaganda about the war - they passed two laws on March 4th that say just that. Russian citizens may not call it a "war" or an "invasion".

There are lots of anti-war protests in Russia right now, and Russia is arresting people for participating in peaceful protests.

Russia has set up "filtration camps" and forcibly deported between 900,000 and 1.6 million Ukrainian citizens, including 260,000 children, from their homes to Russia – often to isolated regions in the Far East.  They are deliberately separating Ukrainian children from their parents and abducting others from orphanages, then putting them up for adoption inside Russia.

They are bombing civilian areas of cities and hospitals and schools.

So ... if we don't want gulags, maybe making excuses for Russia is the wrong strategy?