barnhart wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:28 pm
Second, to the issue of comparing a regulated church to the governance of society, I would emphasize these are not parallel issues. Jesus said the way of the gentiles is to "lord (rule) over one another, but not so among you." His way is service, not rule. The only use of force at the disposal of the church is to withhold fellowship.
Third, to the issue of how the kingdoms of this world ought to rule, I simply don't know. There are principles I advocate like, Imago Dei, or Reciprocity (do to others as you would have done to you), but in the specifics, I am ignorant. Actions that seem right in the moment often prove less than desirable in the long run.
Two stories from people I know personally who demonstrate the courage to engage culture wisely and in a way consistent with Jesus.
One owns the only bakery in a small town and was eventually asked by a same sex couple he knew to make a cake for their wedding. He went through the planning same as any other wedding and thanked them for trusting him with something this important. Then he told them as a follower of Jesus he can't see this relationship has God's blessing, but if they don't mind his convictions, he would be honored as a friend to make the cake. They accepted and he maintains a relationship with them to this day.
Several years ago an immigrant Muslim community began to form in my neighborhood. The public school began an awareness program and invited the Imam to give classes in the school which turned out to be religious indoctrination. The pastor of our church arranged a meeting with the principal and volunteered to lead a religious studies class on following Jesus. Very quickly it was decided to drop that program entirely.
Maybe a kingdom announcing believer with imagination, courage and grace should move into that community with drag queen story hour to fast and pray about how they can serve, not rule.
I have a number of thoughts regarding the above quoted; the first is something like:
1. I agree that my role as a follower of Jesus is to be creative and prayerful and loving in response to something like a 'DQSH' in my immediate community (I'm less concerned about something that happens across the country).
2. Nevertheless, that response is contingent upon a recognition that a 'DQSH' is anti-human and a kind of anodyne 'on-ramp' to a path that ends in destruction.
3. Echoing the postmillenial video from a different thread; no state simply creates a 'neutral public square' and allows a thousand flowers to bloom. Values and beliefs are telegraphed and encouraged/discouraged based on what is legal, taboo, and socially acceptable.
4. Thus a state, in its binding and loosing, can encourage/discourage on-ramps to death or on-ramps to life.
5. Note well that I say encourage and discourage as it can never force me to take a path of death or life and is never, in itself, salvific.
6. It may not be my role to make rules for others to follow but I can hope for a state that tries to encourage life-giving choices and discourage death-giving choices.
7. Thus, I do not lament the outlawing of DQSH, gender-affirming care or the overturning of Roe and see them as foreclosures on people's ability to choose death in those sundry ways.
Are you having a problematic outbreak of drag queens reading books in your community? I don't remember ever once seeing one around here much less in the library.
If so, how do you plan to outlaw drag queens without running afoul of the First Amendment? Are you going to lobby for a local ordinance that bans them from your local public library? What if they are just there to check out books? How are you going to define it in the law? What if they show up dressed like Liberace but aren't technically in drag? What if they pop up in a local bookstore or cafe? Or public park? Drag queens can be transgressive attention-seekers or so I'm told. That seems like an exhausting game of whack-a-mole against people who seek and revel in the attention in the first place. What are you going to do with 100 more show up to support the one you are trying to ban?
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:43 pm
I think I generally agree. One difference might be I open to the possibility that laws and prohibitions can backfire or otherwise produce unwanted outcomes.
Oh I agree which is one of the reasons ‘The State’ can never be salvific or bring about Heaven on Earth; because it is fallible even with the best of intentions.
barnhart wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:28 pm
Second, to the issue of comparing a regulated church to the governance of society, I would emphasize these are not parallel issues. Jesus said the way of the gentiles is to "lord (rule) over one another, but not so among you." His way is service, not rule. The only use of force at the disposal of the church is to withhold fellowship.
Third, to the issue of how the kingdoms of this world ought to rule, I simply don't know. There are principles I advocate like, Imago Dei, or Reciprocity (do to others as you would have done to you), but in the specifics, I am ignorant. Actions that seem right in the moment often prove less than desirable in the long run.
Two stories from people I know personally who demonstrate the courage to engage culture wisely and in a way consistent with Jesus.
One owns the only bakery in a small town and was eventually asked by a same sex couple he knew to make a cake for their wedding. He went through the planning same as any other wedding and thanked them for trusting him with something this important. Then he told them as a follower of Jesus he can't see this relationship has God's blessing, but if they don't mind his convictions, he would be honored as a friend to make the cake. They accepted and he maintains a relationship with them to this day.
Several years ago an immigrant Muslim community began to form in my neighborhood. The public school began an awareness program and invited the Imam to give classes in the school which turned out to be religious indoctrination. The pastor of our church arranged a meeting with the principal and volunteered to lead a religious studies class on following Jesus. Very quickly it was decided to drop that program entirely.
Maybe a kingdom announcing believer with imagination, courage and grace should move into that community with drag queen story hour to fast and pray about how they can serve, not rule.
I have a number of thoughts regarding the above quoted; the first is something like:
1. I agree that my role as a follower of Jesus is to be creative and prayerful and loving in response to something like a 'DQSH' in my immediate community (I'm less concerned about something that happens across the country).
2. Nevertheless, that response is contingent upon a recognition that a 'DQSH' is anti-human and a kind of anodyne 'on-ramp' to a path that ends in destruction.
3. Echoing the postmillenial video from a different thread; no state simply creates a 'neutral public square' and allows a thousand flowers to bloom. Values and beliefs are telegraphed and encouraged/discouraged based on what is legal, taboo, and socially acceptable.
4. Thus a state, in its binding and loosing, can encourage/discourage on-ramps to death or on-ramps to life.
5. Note well that I say encourage and discourage as it can never force me to take a path of death or life and is never, in itself, salvific.
6. It may not be my role to make rules for others to follow but I can hope for a state that tries to encourage life-giving choices and discourage death-giving choices.
7. Thus, I do not lament the outlawing of DQSH, gender-affirming care or the overturning of Roe and see them as foreclosures on people's ability to choose death in those sundry ways.
Are you having a problematic outbreak of drag queens reading books in your community? I don't remember ever once seeing one around here much less in the library.
If so, how do you plan to outlaw drag queens without running afoul of the First Amendment? Are you going to lobby for a local ordinance that bans them from your local public library? What if they are just there to check out books? How are you going to define it in the law? What if they show up dressed like Liberace but aren't technically in drag? What if they pop up in a local bookstore or cafe? Or public park? Drag queens can be transgressive attention-seekers or so I'm told. That seems like an exhausting game of whack-a-mole against people who seek and revel in the attention in the first place. What are you going to do with 100 more show up to support the one you are trying to ban?
Please note that my post is based on a hypothetical situation in which DQSH comes to my local community. It hasn’t. Nevertheless, passing an ordinance based on public decency would probably pass constitutional muster. Again, I wouldn’t be using that route - just hoping someone In power with enough wisdom, moral rectitude and leadership would.
HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:52 pm
I have a number of thoughts regarding the above quoted; the first is something like:
1. I agree that my role as a follower of Jesus is to be creative and prayerful and loving in response to something like a 'DQSH' in my immediate community (I'm less concerned about something that happens across the country).
2. Nevertheless, that response is contingent upon a recognition that a 'DQSH' is anti-human and a kind of anodyne 'on-ramp' to a path that ends in destruction.
3. Echoing the postmillenial video from a different thread; no state simply creates a 'neutral public square' and allows a thousand flowers to bloom. Values and beliefs are telegraphed and encouraged/discouraged based on what is legal, taboo, and socially acceptable.
4. Thus a state, in its binding and loosing, can encourage/discourage on-ramps to death or on-ramps to life.
5. Note well that I say encourage and discourage as it can never force me to take a path of death or life and is never, in itself, salvific.
6. It may not be my role to make rules for others to follow but I can hope for a state that tries to encourage life-giving choices and discourage death-giving choices.
7. Thus, I do not lament the outlawing of DQSH, gender-affirming care or the overturning of Roe and see them as foreclosures on people's ability to choose death in those sundry ways.
Are you having a problematic outbreak of drag queens reading books in your community? I don't remember ever once seeing one around here much less in the library.
If so, how do you plan to outlaw drag queens without running afoul of the First Amendment? Are you going to lobby for a local ordinance that bans them from your local public library? What if they are just there to check out books? How are you going to define it in the law? What if they show up dressed like Liberace but aren't technically in drag? What if they pop up in a local bookstore or cafe? Or public park? Drag queens can be transgressive attention-seekers or so I'm told. That seems like an exhausting game of whack-a-mole against people who seek and revel in the attention in the first place. What are you going to do with 100 more show up to support the one you are trying to ban?
Please note that my post is based on a hypothetical situation in which DQSH comes to my local community. It hasn’t. Nevertheless, passing an ordinance based on public decency would probably pass constitutional muster. Again, I wouldn’t be using that route - just hoping someone In power with enough wisdom, moral rectitude and leadership would.
How many hundreds of thousands of your tax dollars are you willing to see spent defending the constitutionality of such a law in court? Is there no other better use for such dollars in your community? Because that is the direction these things tend to go these days. Whether it is attempts by either the left or the right to legislate morality and speech.
Here in the Pacific Northwest a local school board in Newberg OR spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to defend a ban on rainbow flags and BLM signs. And on the other side, the Bremerton WA school district spent a ton of money defending against its decision to suspend a football coach for public prayer on the football field after football games. They both lost but not after both wasting a ton of money in both cases.
Both of them got to experience the "Streisand Effect" which is that the got a whole lot more of what they were trying to regulate simply by drawing attention to themselves and making it an issue.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 9:04 pm
Does anyone have some wisdom for Falco in regard to his initial question.
Live in the world but not of it. You don't have to embrace everything going on in your community to still be a part of it.
In our great grandparent's generation it was hemlines, dance halls and saloons. For my grandfather it was boys with long hair and girls with short hair (and pants). For my father it was the commercialization of Christmas and rock music. Today it is apparently drag queen story time at the local library and rainbow flags. In another generation it will be something new.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 8:49 pm
How many hundreds of thousands of your tax dollars are you willing to see spent defending the constitutionality of such a law in court? Is there no other better use for such dollars in your community? Because that is the direction these things tend to go these days. Whether it is attempts by either the left or the right to legislate morality and speech.
Do I have a choice? Government will spend tax dollars on what it wishes - much of it (like war) I will be opposed to. I can only hope that from time to time it will have the good sense to pass laws that promote life and discourage death. If it needs to spend tax dollars to do so, so be it.
barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 9:04 pm
Does anyone have some wisdom for Falco in regard to his initial question.
Live in the world but not of it. You don't have to embrace everything going on in your community to still be a part of it.
In our great grandparent's generation it was hemlines, dance halls and saloons. For my grandfather it was boys with long hair and girls with short hair (and pants). For my father it was the commercialization of Christmas and rock music. Today it is apparently drag queen story time at the local library and rainbow flags. In another generation it will be something new.
And the Lord spake, declaring: “Live and let live, for what offendeth thee today, ye shall embrace tomorrow!”
Ken wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:00 am
So of all the community issues facing this town and there are many, drag queen story hour isn't even in the top 1000. It's not even an issue at all. I expect that is actually the case in most of America. There are plenty of actual community issues without having to invent fake ones.what? That is what living in a community has meant since literally the beginning of time.
This is a rare case where I agree with Ken. As a non-Christian, I hate modern culture and its members, and I have a long list of reasons for this, but drag queen story hour doesn't make my list. Every day I deal with the stupidity and bad values of modern culture which make my life miserable. These take enumerable forms, but I have never had to deal with drag queen story hour.
barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 9:04 pm
Does anyone have some wisdom for Falco in regard to his initial question.
Live in the world but not of it. You don't have to embrace everything going on in your community to still be a part of it.
In our great grandparent's generation it was hemlines, dance halls and saloons. For my grandfather it was boys with long hair and girls with short hair (and pants). For my father it was the commercialization of Christmas and rock music. Today it is apparently drag queen story time at the local library and rainbow flags. In another generation it will be something new.
Those are all bad things and now we are stuck with the legacy of them:
- Alcoholism, drug addiction, and DUIs
- Fatherless children due to destruction of gender roles
- Christmas reduced to an orgy of consumer activity and buying plastic garbage polluting the planet
You seem to celebrate the destruction of the polity. I don’t.