Domestic violence within our plain culture?

[Josh]

Because of my involvement in DV, I generally to use the word "abuse" in roughly the standard sense used by DV advocates and counselors.

There is not an academic consensus on this, certainly not to the degree of certainty you are painting (which is why it is interesting you keep saying there is a need for "more training" amongst plain people; what do they need training in? The Duluth model?)

What you have described is people with personality disorders, which are well documented, have specific criteria, and are familiar to psychiatrists. What is not well described or documented is your vague notion of "abuse", but much of what you say would be well covered by a term like "sociopath" or "psychopath", along with other personality disorders.

Perhaps, if you wish to keep portraying yourself as an expert, you should stick to established, clinical language. In particular, what you describe as an "abuser" often has patterns of behaviour outside of just a marriage relationship, and noticing this patterns is as important if not more important than trying to conduct some kind of "investigation" into someone's private marriage and family details.

It's a lot easier to find out if someone has a proven pattern of sociopathic tendencies in business relationships, for example, or other areas of personal conduct. And these kinds of behaviours are also very ungodly and should be addressed by church. My experience in being a denomination that takes such things seriously is that this kind of person is often caught, required to repent, and if they refuse to do so, expelled long before their tendencies that you like to call "abuse" end up affecting their marriage. A person who chooses to marry such a person does so with full knowledge of their behaviour and reputation.

Or you can keep on banging your Duluth Model drumbeats and portraying yourself as an expert, which frankly, with respect, you are not, and worst of all I believe you and your organisation are quite susceptible to being manipulated and exploited by sociopaths, or shall we say, abusers. Indeed, some of us suspect this has already happened.

[Neto]

Josh brings up the importance of repentance. There is a man from this area who is in prison as an accomplice in the murder of his wife, who repented many times, with tears and weeping. I agree with Josh's statement, but how can we recognize when "repentance" is just a show, not genuine at all? Peter asked Jesus how many times he should forgive the one who repeatedly made confession to him after an offense. Everyone knows Jesus' answer. What if you began to suspect that these "heart felt confessions" are only a show?

[Grace]

Josh brings up the importance of repentance. There is a man from this area who is in prison as an accomplice in the murder of his wife, who repented many times, with tears and weeping. I agree with Josh's statement, but how can we recognize when "repentance" is just a show, not genuine at all? Peter asked Jesus how many times he should forgive the one who repeatedly made confession to him after an offense. Everyone knows Jesus' answer. What if you began to suspect that these "heart felt confessions" are only a show?

Beings we can't look into someone's heart, we can't make that call. However in His time, the Lord will reveal whether someone's confession is sincere and heart felt, or if it is for show.

[mike]

Grace, the Scriptures never, not once, equate forgiveness with burying awkward parts of one's story to protect the reputation of a wicked and destructive person, even if that person did subsequently repent—and a key mark of godly repentance is a total and final end of trying to protect one's reputation from the consequences of past sin.

What is not debatable is the need of a victim to somehow forgive the abuser, at least if they want to be forgiven by Christ themselves. This is the word of Jesus himself. We can't get around this. The real question that should and always seems to be debated is how that forgiveness should look.

For example, I believe that a victim of sexual assault should have the choice of never being in contact with the abuser again, even if they have found it within themselves to forgive them from the heart. This causes excruciatingly painful situations, but this kind of pain rests solely on the shoulders of an abuser. And no one should put a shred of guilt on a sexual assault victim for protecting themselves in such situations, even while they must face the call of Jesus to forgive at the same time.

[Neto]

Josh brings up the importance of repentance. There is a man from this area who is in prison as an accomplice in the murder of his wife, who repented many times, with tears and weeping. I agree with Josh's statement, but how can we recognize when "repentance" is just a show, not genuine at all? Peter asked Jesus how many times he should forgive the one who repeatedly made confession to him after an offense. Everyone knows Jesus' answer. What if you began to suspect that these "heart felt confessions" are only a show?

Beings we can't look into someone's heart, we can't make that call. However in His time, the Lord will reveal whether someone's confession is sincere and heart felt, or if it is for show.

I also personally knew a pastor's daughter who married a man who had, with weeping and many tears, "come to salvation" in her father's office. Soon after they were married he said that she could no longer attend church meetings, and that he had faked the whole thing, in order to win her, and to win her father over. A bit of "fore knowledge" would have saved both her and their daughter a whole bucket of pain & suffering.

[Joy]

Josh brings up the importance of repentance. There is a man from this area who is in prison as an accomplice in the murder of his wife, who repented many times, with tears and weeping. I agree with Josh's statement, but how can we recognize when "repentance" is just a show, not genuine at all? Peter asked Jesus how many times he should forgive the one who repeatedly made confession to him after an offense. Everyone knows Jesus' answer. What if you began to suspect that these "heart felt confessions" are only a show?

Beings we can't look into someone's heart, we can't make that call. However in His time, the Lord will reveal whether someone's confession is sincere and heart felt, or if it is for show.

If a person with a Tier 3 child molestation record comes to a church for membership, the church had better make a judgment as to whether he has truly repented.

I've known inmates who really seemed repentant while behind bars, but once released, returned to the sewer of evildoing. One continued teaching Bible studies, while sleeping with his girlfriend who was another man's wife. Another who completed many Bible correspondence courses and planned to go into prison ministry, picked up his alcoholism and using, plus stealing and lying, while using his former priest to stick up for him after I had pointed out certain Scriptures --"He said you'd better see to your own salvation"; I agreed with the latter and quoted 2 Cor. 13:5. One pedophile who knew the Bible very well, married a woman he was cohabiting with, who had a young, teenage daughter, and bragged to me that he was watching movies with nudity; the marriage lasted, as could have been expected, a few months before he was kicked out, losing his house in the bargain. One last example, one who also grew up in church, knew the Bible, but returned to alcoholism and drugs, fornication, and theft of our RV.

Should these criminals have been allowed to come to church? Yes. Should they be welcomed into membership? No, I don't believe so, not when their lives showed such a lack of repentance.

[steve-in-kville]

I also personally knew a pastor's daughter who married a man who had, with weeping and many tears, "come to salvation" in her father's office. Soon after they were married he said that she could no longer attend church meetings, and that he had faked the whole thing, in order to win her, and to win her father over. A bit of "fore knowledge" would have saved both her and their daughter a whole bucket of pain & suffering.

I've seen that a few times, unfortunately

[Josh]

I also personally knew a pastor's daughter who married a man who had, with weeping and many tears, "come to salvation" in her father's office. Soon after they were married he said that she could no longer attend church meetings, and that he had faked the whole thing, in order to win her, and to win her father over. A bit of "fore knowledge" would have saved both her and their daughter a whole bucket of pain & suffering.

I've seen that a few times, unfortunately

Shouldn't there be a longer period before membership, with any marriage / dating plans postponed until after membership? The Bible teaches not to be 'unequally yoked'.

[jahertz]

If a person with a Tier 3 child molestation record comes to a church for membership, the church had better make a judgment as to whether he has truly repented.

I've known inmates who really seemed repentant while behind bars, but once released, returned to the sewer of evildoing. One continued teaching Bible studies, while sleeping with his girlfriend who was another man's wife. Another who completed many Bible correspondence courses and planned to go into prison ministry, picked up his alcoholism and using, plus stealing and lying, while using his former priest to stick up for him after I had pointed out certain Scriptures --"He said you'd better see to your own salvation"; I agreed with the latter and quoted 2 Cor. 13:5. One pedophile who knew the Bible very well, married a woman he was cohabiting with, who had a young, teenage daughter, and bragged to me that he was watching movies with nudity; the marriage lasted, as could have been expected, a few months before he was kicked out, losing his house in the bargain. One last example, one who also grew up in church, knew the Bible, but returned to alcoholism and drugs, fornication, and theft of our RV.

Should these criminals have been allowed to come to church? Yes. Should they be welcomed into membership? No, I don't believe so, not when their lives showed such a lack of repentance.

If a person with a Tier 3 child molestation record comes to a church for membership, the first, minimum indicator of genuine repentance every church should look for is complete openness and clarity about his or her record, plus a welcoming and compliant attitude toward any and all accountability measures, no matter how restrictive, that the church sees fit to require for the protection of its children. The discovery at any point that the applicant has been less than forthright about his or her criminal history should be a one-strike deal-breaker, as should any attempt to circumvent agreed-to restrictions, especially regarding access to children. No one's hurt feelings are worth gambling with the souls of the innocent.

If a church does not understand how to recognize the fruits of genuine repentance with a high degree of confidence, backed by a proven history of accuracy, that church is dysfunctional and has no business admitting new "converts" until its leaders develop the basic spiritual competence required to carry out their sacred charge. The Scripture and the Spirit have not left us in the dark on this matter, and if we choose to remain so, we will answer for the blood of those left in harm's way by our spiritual ignorance and sloth.

[steve-in-kville]

If a person with a Tier 3 child molestation record comes to a church for membership, the first, minimum indicator of genuine repentance every church should look for is complete openness and clarity about his or her record, plus a welcoming and compliant attitude toward any and all accountability measures, no matter how restrictive, that the church sees fit to require for the protection of its children. The discovery at any point that the applicant has been less than forthright about his or her criminal history should be a one-strike deal-breaker, as should any attempt to circumvent agreed-to restrictions, especially regarding access to children. No one's hurt feelings are worth gambling with the souls of the innocent.

I see where you're going with this, not sure I agree 100%. So, if a newcomer becomes a regular attender, is he/she supposed come right out with "yeah, by the way, I'm a registered sex offender."?

Most groups require that anyone with access to children, like teaching Sunday school, has to get a background check. It will be exposed then.