Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Bootstrap]

Do you think I'm making a morally complicated case about something related to Ukraine? Or why the "but"?

Oh, I didn't mean the "but" to imply anything about you personally. Sorry if it seemed that way.

[Bootstrap]

Most of us assumed Ukraine wouldn't be complicated either, that Russia would take them over in a few weeks and that would be the end of it. Russia is threatening other countries in the region, too. What should Caesar do about this? That's very complicated, and it's a question for Caesar to answer.

Actually, that's not that complicated. We live in America. We're in the Western hemisphere. We don't need to get involved in invading countries in the Eastern hemisphere.

There are enough countries in the Eastern hemisphere that can wage war with each other.

Neither the United States nor NATO nor Ukraine have invaded Russia. Russia has invaded Ukraine. If military invasions are a bad thing, it's pretty clear who has done that.

[ken_sylvania]

Most of us assumed Ukraine wouldn't be complicated either, that Russia would take them over in a few weeks and that would be the end of it. Russia is threatening other countries in the region, too. What should Caesar do about this? That's very complicated, and it's a question for Caesar to answer.

Actually, that's not that complicated. We live in America. We're in the Western hemisphere. We don't need to get involved in invading countries in the Eastern hemisphere.

There are enough countries in the Eastern hemisphere that can wage war with each other.

Neither the United States nor NATO nor Ukraine have invaded Russia. Russia has invaded Ukraine. If military invasions are a bad thing, it's pretty clear who has done that.

Absolutely. I happen to also believe that mortar attacks on border patrol stations full of refugees, missile attacks on fuel refineries, bombings of bridges, and killing one's enemies are bad things. And that providing the weapons for other people to do things like this cannot be morally differentiated from the actual doing of such things.

[Josh]

In particular, the U.S. military-industrial complex is profiting to the tune of billions of dollars by selling weapons to NATO and to non-NATO members in Europe. These billions of dollars first come out of U.S. taxpayers' pockets such as myself; then they get converted into missiles, bombs, and munitions; then they are fired upon their targets and bring great destruction.

These are all things that are in dire opposition to the kingdom of heaven. We cannot change what our government does, but we should not be supporting it.

[temporal1]

.. To me, what seems morally complicated is trying to develop a moral paradigm that knows what "Russian Caesar" ought to do or not do, while remaining clue-less about what "Ukrainian Caesar" and "American Caesar" ought to do.

“Ought to do” and, “have done.” From the Caesar pov, no innocents in this.

(Innocents are victims, the ripple effect extends outward.) That’s what war does.

ken_s:
.. I happen to also believe that mortar attacks on border patrol stations full of refugees, missile attacks on fuel refineries, bombings of bridges, and killing one's enemies are bad things.

And that providing the weapons for other people to do things like this cannot be morally differentiated
from the actual doing of such things.

i’ve read some reports from prior-to Feb 24, the U.S./West (and Russia) could not have been better informed, prepared, invested. While (we on this forum) were preoccupied (specifically with Canada’s Truck Convoy) heads of state, Russia, Ukraine, NATO, the West, were formally building up to this strike.

There was no surprise.
Putin had been candid about what he wanted, building a war machine was the single response.

Once billions-trillions are summoned for war, can it be possible to find resolution? i would say, very low odds.
Thus, altho, months ago, reports seem to reflect Putin+Z were in agreement, or close, THIS WAS NOT ALLOWED.

Money+power are seductive. This, in scriptures and in all of history.

[temporal1]

Page 129: March 30 2022

(9 hours ago)

Gravitas: Donbas rebel republics to join Russia?

The latest round of talks between Ukraine and Russia has raised hopes for a peace deal.
Will Zelensky's concessions be enough to end the war? What will determine Putin's response?
Palki Sharma tells you.

i wish there were a transcript.
paraphrasing:
this describes Ukraine’s problem with the U.S., saying “biden doesn’t care if the war continues.”
U.S. rep Blinken, Sec of State (begrudgingly) says the U.S. will respect Ukraine’s decisions in negotiations. i hope that sticks.

it grieves me to wonder if bloodshed could have been avoided, there are indications it could have been, in two ways:
1) diplomacy before invasion; 2) the U.S./West not immediately jumping in, giving Ukraine+Russia time+space to negotiate without high escalation.

this will never be known.

now, the question is, how stupid can the U.S. be from this point? there is room for more errors.
this is NOT a done deal.

The video is about 5min.
What impresses me is how little has changed - EXCEPT the West’s escalation. How much violence is “ok” - by blaming others?
i think that’s Just War - magnified.

[temporal1]

This is dated December 2022 - i expect it should be 2021.
The volatile situation was known, diplomats and church leaders attempted prevention.

The Caesars ramped up for war.

“Churches from both Russia and Ukraine urge for peace”
https://cne.news/artikel/674-churches-f ... -for-peace

.. No such thing as a just war
Moreover, Vladimir Legoyda, Head of the Synodal Department for Church Relations with Society and Mass Media, says that the Church can only be a peacemaker. “The Church can only call for a peaceful resolution of existing conflicts”, he stressed according to Pravmir.com.

The Orthodox Church also developed a Just War Theory.
The traditional theory points out that Christ never led an army and called His followers to love their enemies.
He battled, but not against people, but against Satan, Fr. Bill Olnhausen writes in Pravmir.com.

Olnhausen furthermore argues that “the Orthodox Fathers held that war is always an evil, that there is no such thing as a just war, a holy war (…). Its view of war, unlike that of the West, was that it is a necessary evil. The peace ideal continued to remain normative.”

Great gesture
Supreme Archbishop Sviatoslav Shevchuk, the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church (UGCC) leader, has invited Pope Francis to visit the country. On Tuesday, he said it would be a grand gesture that would help find peace at a time of tension, Reuters reports. According to Shevchuk, the Ukrainian people say that the war will end if the Pope comes to Ukraine. “They see the gesture of a papal visit as a message of peace.” ..

Following the invasion, Pope Francis has spoken out about it.

[nett]

Most of us assumed Ukraine wouldn't be complicated either, that Russia would take them over in a few weeks and that would be the end of it. Russia is threatening other countries in the region, too. What should Caesar do about this? That's very complicated, and it's a question for Caesar to answer.

Actually, that's not that complicated. We live in America. We're in the Western hemisphere. We don't need to get involved in invading countries in the Eastern hemisphere.

There are enough countries in the Eastern hemisphere that can wage war with each other.

Neither the United States nor NATO nor Ukraine have invaded Russia. Russia has invaded Ukraine. If military invasions are a bad thing, it's pretty clear who has done that.

Why do you not care about the shelling of Luhansk and Donetsk that has been going on for like 8 years? I'm not advocating for picking sides, but the Ukrainian government has been complicit in a lot of really nasty attacks on Russian civilians for years.

I have no interest in trying to determine who is worse, or whether the response is appropriate, but you need to stop repeating the propaganda that Ukraine never "attacked anyone".

[Bootstrap]

Why do you not care about the shelling of Luhansk and Donetsk that has been going on for like 8 years? I'm not advocating for picking sides, but the Ukrainian government has been complicit in a lot of really nasty attacks on Russian civilians for years.

I definitely care about the shelling of civilians.

But I don't believe the Russian government's claim that Ukraine was behind this. And really, the Russian version of the story doesn't even make sense - why would anyone use shelling on a separatist region in their own country? That would be stupid from any military perspective or from a "hearts and minds" perspective.

And investigations seem to show it was the Russians. If you look at only one of these, the first one, from Bellingcat, is particularly clear.

Bellingcat Report - Origin of Artillery Attacks on Ukrainian Military Positions in Eastern Ukraine Between 14 July 2014 and 8 August 2014

Where did the shells come from? Investigation of cross-border attacks in еastern Ukraine

U.S.: Satellite Imagery Shows Russians Shelling Eastern Ukraine

Russian Forces in Ukraine

I have no interest in trying to determine who is worse, or whether the response is appropriate, but you need to stop repeating the propaganda that Ukraine never "attacked anyone".

First off, I did not say Ukraine never attacked anyone. Those are your words, not mine.

But I do think that Russian propaganda has become widely believed by the same kinds of conservatives who were extremely skeptical of this propaganda not that long ago. And think of it this way: this was a region where pro-Russian separatists, supported by Russia, are trying to destabilize other parts of Ukraine immediately after invading Crimea and taking it. Wouldn't you expect them to find or create some outrage to justify taking over?

Russia is not a fair, neutral player that is just trying to establish human rights, telling the pure honest truth, and acting as the United Nations. That's just silly.

I care about this, I just think it was the Russia's. I assume you would care just as much if you believed, as I do, that the Russians were the perpetrators.

[Josh]

Boot,

I’ve followed the situation there since the late 1990s, and nobody claimed it was Russia before the current military operations in 2022. This is all gross revisionist history.

I believe one of the units shelling civilians was Azov, which the mainstream media all claimed too until 2022. The issue at hand here is Ukraine’s government decided to integrate Azov.

That’s kind of like our own government deciding to integrate some right wing paramilitary militia that has a history of attacking Mexican towns near the border, after the U.S. gets into a military conflict with Mexico. It would be wrong to do that.