Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Ken]

Ok, Bootstrap, you say "Ukraine should remain Ukraine".

Should Crimea be annexed to whatever the Ukraine is, or should it remain part of Russia?

NATO's position is that Russia needs to respect "Ukrainian territorial integrity" which mysteriously includes Crimea, even though there is no historical (or present day) argument for how on earth one can claim Crimea is part of "Ukraine".

Don't you ever get tired of repeating Russian propaganda? It is one thing to question the war. It is another thing to repeat unfiltered Russian propaganda in support of genocide. It isn't a good look. No historical or present day argument you say?

1. Every single part of Ukraine including Crimea voted in favor of Ukrainian independence along the lines of the pre-2014 borders. And yes that includes the people of Crimea.

2. The internationally recognized borders of Ukraine include Crimea.

3. The Budapest Memorandum of 1994 signed by BOTH Russia and Ukraine agreed to the 1991 borders of Ukraine which included Crimea. And Russia agreed to respect and guarantee those borders as part of Ukraine's agreement to give up its nuclear arsenal.

4. The people of Crimea along with the rest of Ukraine through their representatives voted for the 1996 Constitution of Ukraine which (a) provided for local autonomy and self-governance for oblasts such as Crimea, and (b) also required that any changes to internal or national borders must be approved by a referendum of the entire population of Ukraine, not simply one part. This is the constitution that the people of Crimea helped draft and agreed to.

5. Crimea has always been a multi-ethnic region despite repeated Russian attempts at genocide and "Russification" of the region as part of previous Imperial Russian empire-building, more recent post-WW2 Soviet efforts, and the 2014 invasion. The original inhabitants of the region are the Crimean Tartars. Ask them their opinion of Russia. They have been subject to over a century of Russian genocide that continues to this day. I have a variety of Russian and Ukrainian students in my classes this year including refugees from Crimea. Ask their opinion of Russia if you dare.

[temporal1]

i’m not an expert on Just War. i think i recognize it in the mainstream, it’s not as tho it’s veiled. i understand Putin and Russia’s EO to follow Just War Theory, understanding, the West will believe they’ve got it all wrong, they believe the West has it all wrong.

I don't see anyone attacking Russia. I don't see Russian cities getting bombed or Russian civilians being targeted en masse.

Did you miss:

#1. The assassination of Aleksander Dugin's daughter

#2. Ukraine's "counter-terrorism" government agency bombing the Crimean bridge.

#3. The repeated shelling of ethnic Russian areas of Donetsk and Luhansk. You can argue these aren't part of Russia, but this deranged behaviour is what led to the current situation.

A smaller, weaker country can't expect to do these things to a much bigger country and not have repercussions.
And the U.S.'s role in this has been the most egregious, including forcing regime change on Ukraine and stoking these kind of deranged conflicts.

Instead of helping other countries seek peace, the U.S. promotes war.

It struck me as peculiar how Zelensky immediately turned to the West+U.S., not only requesting substantial aid, but demanding it. As tho prior “arrangements” were in place (you promised, now deliver) not from a true position of strength. The bravado reported (in hollywood fashion) is impossible to deny. (Altho, i don’t get the idea Z is entirely trusting of the U.S., either.) And shouldn’t be.

Ukraine is in a bad location.

[Josh]

Ok, Bootstrap, you say "Ukraine should remain Ukraine".

Should Crimea be annexed to whatever the Ukraine is, or should it remain part of Russia?

NATO's position is that Russia needs to respect "Ukrainian territorial integrity" which mysteriously includes Crimea, even though there is no historical (or present day) argument for how on earth one can claim Crimea is part of "Ukraine".

Don't you ever get tired of repeating Russian propaganda? It is one thing to question the war. It is another thing to repeat unfiltered Russian propaganda in support of genocide. It isn't a good look. No historical or present day argument you say?

1. Every single part of Ukraine including Crimea voted in favor of Ukrainian independence along the lines of the pre-2014 borders. And yes that includes the people of Crimea.

As I keep pointing out, Crimea was annexed to the Ukraine Socialist Soviet Republic back in the 1950s for various reasons of internal politics of the USSR.

2. The internationally recognized borders of Ukraine include Crimea.

Recognised by whom? I think you mean "recognised by Western-aligned countries". There are countries that recognise Russia's claims.

[quote[3. The Budapest Memorandum of 1994 signed by BOTH Russia and Ukraine agreed to the 1991 borders of Ukraine which included Crimea. And Russia agreed to respect and guarantee those borders as part of Ukraine's agreement to give up its nuclear arsenal.[/quote]

... and there were also agreements by NATO not to expand NATO right up to Russia's borders.

4. The people of Crimea along with the rest of Ukraine through their representatives voted for the 1996 Constitution of Ukraine which (a) provided for local autonomy and self-governance for oblasts such as Crimea, and (b) also required that any changes to internal or national borders must be approved by a referendum of the entire population of Ukraine, not simply one part. This is the constitution that the people of Crimea helped draft and agreed to.

And then the people in Crimea changed their minds. Honestly, Ken, nobody really even disputes that the Crimean and Sebastapolian referenda were unfair or dishonest. Most people there are Russian and preferred to be part of the Russian Federation, not the Republic of Ukraine.

5. Crimea has always been a multi-ethnic region despite repeated Russian attempts at genocide and "Russification" of the region as part of previous Imperial Russian empire-building, more recent post-WW2 Soviet efforts, and the 2014 invasion. The original inhabitants of the region are the Crimean Tartars. Ask them their opinion of Russia. They have been subject to over a century of Russian genocide that continues to this day. I have a variety of Russian and Ukrainian students in my classes this year including refugees from Crimea. Ask their opinion of Russia if you dare.

Of course you can find various groups that have a differing opinion than the majority.

Ken, I am very concerned about the inflammatory rhetoric I see appearing. Russia is described as "terrorist". Russia is described as "genocidal". Whatever Ukraine's government does is described as "freedom fighting". It appears that the real agenda here is to justify Western military action.

[Josh]

It struck me as peculiar how Zelensky immediately turned to the West+U.S., not only requesting substantial aid, but demanding it. As tho prior “arrangements” were in place (you promised, now deliver) not from a true position of strength. The bravado reported (in hollywood fashion) is impossible to deny. (Altho, i don’t get the idea Z is entirely trusting of the U.S., either.) And shouldn’t be.

Ukraine is in a bad location.

Zelensky is a western puppet, so of course the first thing he's going to do is demand help from his paymasters - who are more than eager to start dispensing it. The U.S. is sending billions of dollars in weapons and munitions there.

What is shocking is to see supposedly "pacifist" Mennonites supporting shipping billions of dollars in weapons, ammunition, bombs, and missiles to the region. Many of these people are the same people who ended up picking up arms in the Ukraine to fight with the Nazis in the 1930s. They have the same kind of thinking: it's OK to shoot and kill people as long as you're shooting and killing Russians.

[Ken]

Ken, I am very concerned about the inflammatory rhetoric I see appearing. Russia is described as "terrorist". Russia is described as "genocidal". Whatever Ukraine's government does is described as "freedom fighting". It appears that the real agenda here is to justify Western military action.

The word genocide has an actual definition and meaning. As does the word "terrorism"

Russia's actions in Ukraine meet any reasonable definition of both genocide and terrorism. As does the rhetoric coming out of Russia from BOTH the Russian government and state media. As they say..."if the shoe fits"

Maybe you should be MORE concerned about the fact that Russia is actually committing both genocide and terrorism in Ukraine and less about how people are describing it or the fact that it makes Russia look bad.

[Bootstrap]

What is shocking is to see supposedly "pacifist" Mennonites supporting shipping billions of dollars in weapons, ammunition, bombs, and missiles to the region. Many of these people are the same people who ended up picking up arms in the Ukraine to fight with the Nazis in the 1930s. They have the same kind of thinking: it's OK to shoot and kill people as long as you're shooting and killing Russians.

I don't see that here, Josh. I have not advocated that. I have said this is in Caesar's domain, I don't know what the right course of action is for Caesar, my concern is for the victims of war, etc.

But I am saying military invasions and killing civilians are bad things. That's what Putin is doing. Repeatedly, you seem to be saying that Putin has every right to do this, that it's somehow a good thing, that Ukraine has no right to exist, that it should belong to Russia.

To me, that's a "pacifist" Mennonite playing cheerleader to a military invasion.

[Grace]

Zelensky is a western puppet, so of course the first thing he's going to do is demand help from his paymasters - who are more than eager to start dispensing it. The U.S. is sending billions of dollars in weapons and munitions there.

Sorry I disagree. It isn't Zelensky who is the puppet, It is Biden, with Zelenshy having the upper hand. Just my opinion, but with all the corruption tying Ukraine to Hunter Biden, I think Zelensky gave the Biden Crime Family the low down. You support us in this war or else I will reveal all your corruption.

[ken_sylvania]

What is shocking is to see supposedly "pacifist" Mennonites supporting shipping billions of dollars in weapons, ammunition, bombs, and missiles to the region. Many of these people are the same people who ended up picking up arms in the Ukraine to fight with the Nazis in the 1930s. They have the same kind of thinking: it's OK to shoot and kill people as long as you're shooting and killing Russians.

I don't see that here, Josh. I have not advocated that. I have said this is in Caesar's domain, I don't know what the right course of action is for Caesar, my concern is for the victims of war, etc.

But I am saying military invasions and killing civilians are bad things. That's what Putin is doing. Repeatedly, you seem to be saying that Putin has every right to do this, that it's somehow a good thing, that Ukraine has no right to exist, that it should belong to Russia.

To me, that's a "pacifist" Mennonite playing cheerleader to a military invasion.

Is there a particular reason you say "That's what Putin is doing" rather than saying "That's what Putin and Zelensky are doing."?

[Falco Underhill]

Ken, I am very concerned about the inflammatory rhetoric I see appearing. Russia is described as "terrorist". Russia is described as "genocidal". Whatever Ukraine's government does is described as "freedom fighting". It appears that the real agenda here is to justify Western military action.

The word genocide has an actual definition and meaning. As does the word "terrorism"

Russia's actions in Ukraine meet any reasonable definition of both genocide and terrorism. As does the rhetoric coming out of Russia from BOTH the Russian government and state media. As they say..."if the shoe fits"

Maybe you should be MORE concerned about the fact that Russia is actually committing both genocide and terrorism in Ukraine and less about how people are describing it or the fact that it makes Russia look bad.

If Ukraine would agree to stay out of NATO Putin would come to the table and this conflict could end in a month. However, US/NATO would rather risk more lives and nuclear war than agree to that.

How many more lives is it worth to keep fighting for Ukraine's holy and sacred right to enter NATO and keep Nuclear Weapons pointed at Russia?

[Ken]

Ken, I am very concerned about the inflammatory rhetoric I see appearing. Russia is described as "terrorist". Russia is described as "genocidal". Whatever Ukraine's government does is described as "freedom fighting". It appears that the real agenda here is to justify Western military action.

The word genocide has an actual definition and meaning. As does the word "terrorism"

Russia's actions in Ukraine meet any reasonable definition of both genocide and terrorism. As does the rhetoric coming out of Russia from BOTH the Russian government and state media. As they say..."if the shoe fits"

Maybe you should be MORE concerned about the fact that Russia is actually committing both genocide and terrorism in Ukraine and less about how people are describing it or the fact that it makes Russia look bad.

If Ukraine would agree to stay out of NATO Putin would come to the table and this conflict could end in a month. However, US/NATO would rather risk more lives and nuclear war than agree to that.

How many more lives is it worth to fight for Ukraine's sacred right to enter NATO and keep Nuclear Weapons pointed at Russia?

Ukraine staying out of NATO didn't prevent this war. Ukraine was not in NATO and had pretty much zero prospects of joining NATO as of February 24, 2022. That did not prevent Russia from invading. This war isn't about joining NATO. If it was then Russia would have invaded Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, and now Finland which are all former Russian colonies that have joined NATO.

In fact, one could easily make the argument that joining NATO would have prevented this war for Ukraine.