Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[temporal1]

200 pages!

Videos. Stories. Conspiracy theories. No, you do not know what "they" are planning when you see a video like that on the Internet. But you do know what "they" had in mind when they actually invade another country, we saw Russia do that in Ukraine.

And they all seem to say that Putin is not really responsible for his military aggression or for the atrocities his forces are committing against civilians. Who do you think is making these videos? Why?

You ask for facts, you ignore what you don’t like. Lots of folks like that.

Yes, facts are what I ask for.

Here's the definition:

a thing that is known or proved to be true.

The link you shared above is “opinion.” (the link reads: NATO HQ opinion) thus, NATO HQ supports NATO. surprise!
It’s a very nice looking, official website page.

You’re calling JJM a liar? a conspiracy theorist? he might be amused. not surprised.

From Page 1, the OP and subject line, there has been NO CONTEST that Russia invaded Ukraine. None.
Now, how to respond? 200 pages later, “Russia invaded Ukraine” as tho it’s a new revelation.

Definitely, the mainstream is all-in for Just War.
Some want to pursue alternatives, especially from an authentic Christian stance. Not convinced Jesus was a Just War kinda guy.

[Jazman]

Certainly, google is reliable for supplying lib-biased links.

Does mennonet.com phpBB have a mirror tag?
I'm curious how some of you are able to rail against 'liberal' media manipulation without seeing how you participate in what looks like the same thing..., Based on the video links, many of them coming from Google/Youtube! it sure looks like some of you are far down some google/youtube algorithm rabbit hole... which by now are pretty universally known to be manipulative and driven by what it knows you engage with and what you like, and in some ways knows what you WANT to believe... And the platforms/algorithms serve this kind of stuff to BOTH sides/extremes of the spectrum! It cares not a whit what 'tribe' you're part of; it serves you what keeps you coming back for more...

Here, some wisdom in this matter, from a real conservative: youtube-extremism-and-the-long-tail

Btw... Google is serving you "alt-right/far right biased links"... if we both searched a particular thing or term in Google or Youtube, the returns you get would be quite different than the ones I or another person here gets. Google knows what you like temp... and it looks like it's serving you heaps of a certain bent (facts be darned)
(disclosure - I'm a little more loose with what I put into a normal Google search but still mindful of the returns; but a lot more careful with youtube... I do what I can to manipulate the algorithm to keep the list it shows me within some boundaries...hence my youtube list is majority Bible teachers like Tim Mackie/NTWright/Anabaptist Perspectives, soccer, rally cars/F1, aviation, classical music concerts and middle of the road news bits...ect. If something pops in that starts going off track, I right click it and remove it via "Not interested" or "Don't Recommend Channel")

[Jazman]

Definitely, the mainstream is all-in for Just War.
Some want to pursue alternatives, especially from an authentic Christian stance. Not convinced Jesus was a Just War kinda guy.

Hmmm, like the videos you post, this looks like deflection... You're right, Jesus wasn't a Just War guy... but he wasn't a Putin or 'smite the gay West' kinda guy either...

[Josh]

Ok, Bootstrap, you say "Ukraine should remain Ukraine".

Should Crimea be annexed to whatever the Ukraine is, or should it remain part of Russia?

NATO's position is that Russia needs to respect "Ukrainian territorial integrity" which mysteriously includes Crimea, even though there is no historical (or present day) argument for how on earth one can claim Crimea is part of "Ukraine".

[Bootstrap]

Ok, Bootstrap, you say "Ukraine should remain Ukraine".

Should Crimea be annexed to whatever the Ukraine is, or should it remain part of Russia?

My position is very simple: military aggression is bad. Bombing civilians is bad. Torture is bad. I don't need an answer to every possible question to believe these things. In fact, my Two Kingdom Theology says I don't have all the answers, a lot of this is in Caesar's hands, God has given Caesar a role to play too, but I am part of another Kingdom.

Restoring the Russian Empire by military aggression is not a goal for the Kingdom of God. Helping refugees, praying for victims, grieving war - those are Kingdom of God things. Glorifying military imperialism? Not so much.

[temporal1]

Definitely, the mainstream is all-in for Just War.
Some want to pursue alternatives, especially from an authentic Christian stance. Not convinced Jesus was a Just War kinda guy.

Hmmm, like the videos you post, this looks like deflection... You're right, Jesus wasn't a Just War guy...
but he wasn't a Putin or 'smite the gay West' kinda guy either...

the former, ok.
i’m not an expert on Just War. i think i recognize it in the mainstream, it’s not as tho it’s veiled. i understand Putin and Russia’s EO to follow Just War Theory, understanding, the West will believe they’ve got it all wrong, they believe the West has it all wrong.

(the latter is so off-the-rails, it’s beyond me to grasp where it’s coming from - on this forum.)

in the world, including in Europe (the little i see) this sort of broad-brush labeling+dismissing those not in alignment with the lib narrative has been normalized. it’s not correct or healthy, but, common. Italy’s recent election brought it out. it doesn’t take much.

on this forum, the uncommon is expected, and found! - seeking Truth in Jesus.

Jesus never addressed conflict as, “hmm, now, which side shall i take??!” Not at all.
He recognized both sides as fallible, both sides as redeemable, and offered His way to all - both sides, observers, non-observers.

The tribal mentality of us versus them runs deep, doesn’t it. Jesus offers better.

Don’t be frightened to find “your side” is imperfect! It just is.
This, Christians should anticipate. In all matters.

Certainly, wherever great wealth+power are at stake, incompetence+corruption will be at-hand, no matter “side.”
i’m sorry to say. The U.S. has worshipped a false god of “throw money at everything” for a long long while.
It does remind of a suicidal drunk in company of others urging him to drink evermore.

Personally, when i view youtube videos, i mostly think of them as .. listening to neighbors.
These are opinions, ideas, none of it The Word of God.
(ditto, the lib mainstream is not the Word of God. no matter how they frame it.) they often appear to believe they are better than the Word of God. which explains so much hurt and failure.

Some of it i regard with more confidence, for instance, John Mearsheimer, Thomas Sowell, and others, who “meet and exceed” all academic+other criteria (i know of) for deserving respect. (i have no idea if either is Christian.) Neither is God.

In news reporting, and in education, i believe both/all sides should be represented in as equal measure possible.
failing that, it becomes propaganda/indoctrination, not education. i’m sorry to say. i believe most would LOVE to just simply read the mainstream, accept it, go about our business, and carry on. that’s not what we have. sorry to say.

the internet allows neighbors to discuss matters in new ways.

the situation with the 90’s priest abuse scandals was the turning point (i noticed).
victims were enabled to compare notes. years later, still no perfection! many have been helped. i hope, much has been prevented.

i don’t believe it’s yet known what’s going to result from the internet. these years will determine, spiritual battles are being hard-fought. evil does not rest. similar to witnessing Russia/Ukraine, i’m watching internet wars being waged. i don’t know outcomes. i pray for God’s will. i don’t know God’s will.

Ukraine has 2 wolves at its door. In its house, really.

i’ve been with those praying for resolution from the start. i’m sad that some see that as deflecting, alt-right, what have you.
to me, praying for resolution is bedrock Jesus Christ.

[Josh]

Ok, Bootstrap, you say "Ukraine should remain Ukraine".

Should Crimea be annexed to whatever the Ukraine is, or should it remain part of Russia?

My position is very simple: military aggression is bad. Bombing civilians is bad. Torture is bad.

I agree. That's why the USA, the current government of the Ukraine, and Russia should not do and should stop doing these things.

However, there is no "innocent party" from the above list of 3 people.

In particular, we're Americans in America and we should be speaking out against our government supplying billions of dollars in weapons and munitions.

Restoring the Russian Empire by military aggression is not a goal for the Kingdom of God. Helping refugees, praying for victims, grieving war - those are Kingdom of God things. Glorifying military imperialism? Not so much.

Propping up the Republic of Ukraine is also not a goal for the Kingdom of God.

[Bootstrap]

i’m not an expert on Just War. i think i recognize it in the mainstream, it’s not as tho it’s veiled. i understand Putin and Russia’s EO to follow Just War Theory, understanding, the West will believe they’ve got it all wrong, they believe the West has it all wrong.

I don't see anyone attacking Russia. I don't see Russian cities getting bombed or Russian civilians being targeted en masse. I don't see anyone announcing that Russia does not have the right to exist as a separate country or claiming the right to replace the Russian government. Some people have claimed that Stoltenburg said things like this, but the transcripts for his speeches are on the NATO website, and he clearly did not say those things.

I do see Russia attacking Ukraine. I do see Ukranian cities getting bombed and Ukranian civilians being targeted en masse. I do see Putin announcing that Ukraine does not have the right to exist as a separate country and claiming the right to replace the Ukranian government.

And in Putin's speeches, he clearly believes that Russia has the right to take over more countries than just Ukraine, he is describing the former Russian Empire and saying he wants to restore that by military means, that it's a great injustice that these countries have somehow been allowed to exist on their own.

[temporal1]

.. you say "Ukraine should remain Ukraine".

Should Crimea be annexed to whatever the Ukraine is, or should it remain part of Russia?

NATO's position is that Russia needs to respect "Ukrainian territorial integrity" which mysteriously includes Crimea,
even though there is no historical (or present day) argument for how on earth one can claim Crimea is part of "Ukraine".

It’s a mystery; personally, it seems an overt escalation of conflict/war, not “innocent” defense from any perspective.
However, it’s a reflection of how the Left West rolls. (Just say anything, pass it off as beyond debate.)

Changing goalposts is a tidy way to establish Ukraine as a forever war. While blaming others.
When all words+actions (billions+trillions) are for protracted war, it’s not a leap to conclude, protracted war is the goal.

boot:
I don't see anyone attacking Russia.

i don’t see anyone defending Russia.
some are sincerely interested in the path that led to Feb 24. this does not amount to an excuse! it’s just facts.
as Josh repeats: no innocents in this. not even Ukraine.

Jesus was clear about not taking sides, about seeing all parties as sinners. About offering His way.

[Josh]

i’m not an expert on Just War. i think i recognize it in the mainstream, it’s not as tho it’s veiled. i understand Putin and Russia’s EO to follow Just War Theory, understanding, the West will believe they’ve got it all wrong, they believe the West has it all wrong.

I don't see anyone attacking Russia. I don't see Russian cities getting bombed or Russian civilians being targeted en masse.

Did you miss:

#1. The assassination of Aleksander Dugin's daughter

#2. Ukraine's "counter-terrorism" government agency bombing the Crimean bridge.

#3. The repeated shelling of ethnic Russian areas of Donetsk and Luhansk. You can argue these aren't part of Russia, but this deranged behaviour is what led to the current situation.

A smaller, weaker country can't expect to do these things to a much bigger country and not have repercussions. And the U.S.'s role in this has been the most egregious, including forcing regime change on Ukraine and stoking these kind of deranged conflicts. Instead of helping other countries seek peace, the U.S. promotes war.