Anabaptist cultural engagement

[barnhart]

In another thread Falco asks this question,

... In general, I think quietism works great for small communities that separate themselves from the world, and keep the laws of God as best they can within their own communities.

However, when they come out of those communities to tell the world it's okay to tolerate things in the "world" they wouldn't tolerate in their own communities (drag queen story hour) then I have a problem with that.

Their small communities are regulated very much indeed, but everyone else who doesn't live in such separated communities is immoral if they try to impose standards?

Do you know of any Anabaptists communities who are in favor of drag queen story hour and teaching gender ideology to their children, Barnhart?

This seems a worthy topic. What answer would you give.

[Neto]

I am probably not the best person to be responding, because I have no first hand experience with any "small community separated from the world", at least not PHYSICALLY separated. Perhaps a further definition of the type of separation being referred to would be in order: Physical separation, or spiritual separation?
Beyond that, I do not think that physical separation is in keeping with the intentions of our King. (There was a time when I did - I grew up longing for the colony life my people lost when they fled the Russian Empire.) Back in 85, in Forteleza, Ceara, (northeast Brazil) a homeless American preacher of sorts, Davi Cooper, came to the church where we were attending. That Sunday evening he was asked to speak. (This was the first time anyone there had ever met him.) His message was one of the coming world-wide persecution of Christian believers, and he urged the organization of a hidden community deep in the Amazon, a place to weather the storm. Our Master's last injunction goes against this sort of "retreat" from the lost people of the world. I think that we ought to be fully "engaged" in the lives of the people around us, as fully as those people will allow. (Not politically, but personally.)

[PetrChelcicky]

Imho the best what one can do is helping other people to help themselves - i.e. forming their own sub-society and sub-culture, forming their own organizations for mutual help etc.
And the first thing those people need is a model.
So, just as withdrawn and separated organizations - and only that way - Anabaptist communities can be "the town on the hill" for others. Only few may join them, but all can take them as a model.

We must remember that "subcultures" are a rather modern development, starting gradually in early modern Europa, with a certain climax in the ultra-libertarian "hippie era", but deeply uncomfortable in our post-libertarian days. Nowadays, subcultures have to be either "approved by the state" (like LBTQetc) or else deemed "dangerous" (as Trumpists or Evangelicals).
Anabaptists did a lot to make subcultures tolerable, as something which everyone has to live with, whatever he thinks about it. This kind of "tolerance" is now dwindling, but this makes it even more important to form strong subcultures as a shelter against growing intolerance.

[PetrChelcicky]

We probably all agree that "retreats" are necessary. (Best example: the Quaker retreat for ex-concentration camp inmates in Frankfort). For example, Pastor Bodelschwingh was a German Christian known for the different kinds of "retreats" he created, mostly his retreats for the handicapped. But at a time when he cared about hoboes, he planned for them agrarian settlements (making them independent from welfare). So, the idea of an agrarian settlement will rise again end again, at different places. But only Anabaptist can be a real model for them, from the successes and failures of which to learn the know-how.
My personal dream is a retreat for people who revolted against the state and the media, have clashed and failed and now are emotionally exhausted (and perhaps out of work or bankrupt, too). Well, this is not something I could win over a Christian church for, so will it become reality? Depends on how long I am going to live.

[Franklin]

My personal dream is a retreat for people who revolted against the state and the media, have clashed and failed and now are emotionally exhausted (and perhaps out of work or bankrupt, too). Well, this is not something I could win over a Christian church for, so will it become reality? Depends on how long I am going to live.

I don't know the situation in Germany, but in the English-speaking world, all members of modern culture are completely worthless across the political spectrum. The Left versus Right conflict is simply a civil war in an evil culture. So any decent community must be formed from people coming out of a decent culture. For example people who left an Anabaptist community for whatever reason could be candidates for a good new community because Anabaptists are generally decent people. There are also some decent people in Islam, Catholicism, and Orthodox Christianity - namely those who put their religion over modern culture. To my knowledge there are no decent Protestants left. Anyway, that is what I see as a non-Christian living in mainstream America.

[barnhart]

...I do not think that physical separation is in keeping with the intentions of our King... Our Master's last injunction goes against this sort of "retreat" from the lost people of the world. I think that we ought to be fully "engaged" in the lives of the people around us, as fully as those people will allow...

I agree with this.

[barnhart]

Imho the best what one can do is helping other people to help themselves - i.e. forming their own sub-society and sub-culture, forming their own organizations for mutual help etc...

I agree as long as that organization is the church.

...
Anabaptists did a lot to make subcultures tolerable, as something which everyone has to live with, whatever he thinks about it. This kind of "tolerance" is now dwindling, but this makes it even more important to form strong subcultures as a shelter against growing intolerance.

I agree as long as that subculture is a healthy church.

[barnhart]

...The Left versus Right conflict is simply a civil war in an evil culture.

It's not often you and I agree Franklin, but I find this true as a generalization.

[barnhart]

... In general, I think quietism works great for small communities that separate themselves from the world, and keep the laws of God as best they can within their own communities.

However, when they come out of those communities to tell the world it's okay to tolerate things in the "world" they wouldn't tolerate in their own communities (drag queen story hour) then I have a problem with that.

Their small communities are regulated very much indeed, but everyone else who doesn't live in such separated communities is immoral if they try to impose standards?

Do you know of any Anabaptists communities who are in favor of drag queen story hour and teaching gender ideology to their children, Barnhart?

I don't know if Falco is still listening but I have a few thoughts as a response.

First the issue of "quietism" or seclusion as a cultural strategy. Like Neto I can't fit this with the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles. This is not what the early church taught or acted out. There might be extreme cases when this is an advisable temporary strategy, such as fleeing active war, but the instruction of Jesus is to enter in to the unbelieving world and announce the the kingdom. Even the metaphors he used (light in dark places, salt) speak to engagement and presence, not seclusion or sequestration.

Second, to the issue of comparing a regulated church to the governance of society, I would emphasize these are not parallel issues. Jesus said the way of the gentiles is to "lord (rule) over one another, but not so among you." His way is service, not rule. The only use of force at the disposal of the church is to withhold fellowship.

Third, to the issue of how the kingdoms of this world ought to rule, I simply don't know. There are principles I advocate like, Imago Dei, or Reciprocity (do to others as you would have done to you), but in the specifics, I am ignorant. Actions that seem right in the moment often prove less than desirable in the long run.

Two stories from people I know personally who demonstrate the courage to engage culture wisely and in a way consistent with Jesus.

One owns the only bakery in a small town and was eventually asked by a same sex couple he knew to make a cake for their wedding. He went through the planning same as any other wedding and thanked them for trusting him with something this important. Then he told them as a follower of Jesus he can't see this relationship has God's blessing, but if they don't mind his convictions, he would be honored as a friend to make the cake. They accepted and he maintains a relationship with them to this day.

Several years ago an immigrant Muslim community began to form in my neighborhood. The public school began an awareness program and invited the Imam to give classes in the school which turned out to be religious indoctrination. The pastor of our church arranged a meeting with the principal and volunteered to lead a religious studies class on following Jesus. Very quickly it was decided to drop that program entirely.

Maybe a kingdom announcing believer with imagination, courage and grace should move into that community with drag queen story hour to fast and pray about how they can serve, not rule.

[Ken]

In another thread Falco asks this question,

... In general, I think quietism works great for small communities that separate themselves from the world, and keep the laws of God as best they can within their own communities.

However, when they come out of those communities to tell the world it's okay to tolerate things in the "world" they wouldn't tolerate in their own communities (drag queen story hour) then I have a problem with that.

Their small communities are regulated very much indeed, but everyone else who doesn't live in such separated communities is immoral if they try to impose standards?

Do you know of any Anabaptists communities who are in favor of drag queen story hour and teaching gender ideology to their children, Barnhart?

This seems a worthy topic. What answer would you give.

I think you have kind of a warped notion of what normal community life is like in secular America. I live in a middle sized blue/purple community and we have an excellent local library that I use on occasion. It is very popular and in the center of town. On Wednesdays they close off the street in front for the weekly farmer's market and there are all variety of other community events throughout the year from Christmas markets fall festivals, garden festivals and so forth. The library has a very full schedule of events and as far as I can tell has never once hosted a Drag Queen story hour: https://www.cityofcamas.us/library As far as I can tell there's only ever been one held in this county of over 500,000 and that was a one-time event four years ago in the downtown Vancouver library 12 miles away. If you want to take your kids to a drag queen story hour you are going to have to work pretty hard at it. There is probably one over somewhere in Portland but you will have to make a serious effort to find it. It isn't something you are going to accidently stumble upon while out in the local community. No one is trying to transgender your youth or recruit them to the gay. At worst they might get recruited to fill out a local youth recreational soccer or lacrosse team.

So of all the community issues facing this town and there are many, drag queen story hour isn't even in the top 1000. It's not even an issue at all. I expect that is actually the case in most of America. There are plenty of actual community issues without having to invent fake ones. Homelessness, hunger, poverty, access to affordable healthcare, domestic violence, inadequate sidewalks and crosswalks, traffic, water infrastructure, nonpoint source pollution in local streams and lakes, trail maintenance, refugees from Ukraine and Afghanistan, etc. etc. Also a very wide variety of local churches from the traditional mainstream variety to more fringe groups to newer evangelical megachurches. There are Spanish-language churches, Korean and Vietnamese churches, and conservative plain churches as well but more of the Apostolic Lutheran variety and some conservative Russian and Ukrainian churches but they tend to be further out of town.

So engage with the the outside world and your local community. Or don't. Help make it a better place, or don't. The choice is yours. Not everyone is necessarily going share your views. Nor you theirs. But so what? That is what living in a community has meant since literally the beginning of time.