Edward Snowden

[Ken]

My advice for Western European powers is to refrain from getting into a land war with Russia in winter, but what do I know? Listen to the experts in strategic planning like Napoleon and Hitler instead.

It is a good thing that no one is planning a land war in Russia in winter then.

[Josh]

My advice for Western European powers is to refrain from getting into a land war with Russia in winter, but what do I know? Listen to the experts in strategic planning like Napoleon and Hitler instead.

It is a good thing that no one is planning a land war in Russia in winter then.

The West seems to be planning major operations in the Donbas.

[Ken]

My advice for Western European powers is to refrain from getting into a land war with Russia in winter, but what do I know? Listen to the experts in strategic planning like Napoleon and Hitler instead.

It is a good thing that no one is planning a land war in Russia in winter then.

The West seems to be planning major operations in the Donbas.

If you want to actually use legitimate historical analogies then what we discover is that Russia is, indeed a formidable foe when it is actually allied with the largest and wealthiest western powers.

During the Napoleonic Wars and French invasion of Russia we had the United Kingdom which was the largest western economy in the world at that time allied with Russia and attacking France from the west at the same time that Napoleon was invading Russia. So Russia was allied with the world's top economy against the upstart French.

During WW2 you had the USSR allied with the top western economies in the world in the form of the British Empire and the United States against the upstart Germans. The US essentially armed and fed the Soviet armies during 1943-1945 through Lend-Lease and it was American trucks, weapons, and planes that broke the back of the Germans. The numbers are astonishing: https://ru.usembassy.gov/world-war-ii-a ... 1941-1945/ such as 400,000 trucks and jeeps and 12,000 planes.

Today it is the opposite. Ukraine is the country allied with the West not Russia and it is Russia that is the invading army just like Napoleon and Hitler in war's past. So the correct historical analogy is probably the reverse of what you are suggesting. The lesson of 1812 and 1942 is that it is folly to invade a large continental country that has near unlimited resources due to its alliance with the largest western economic powers. Which is exactly what Russia is doing today in Ukraine.

From a purely cynical geopolitical view the US and NATO are probably perfectly happy to watch Russia exhaust itself in Ukraine, the longer the war lasts the better. Russia is just destroying its army and economy and NATO gets to test all its newest toys under battlefield conditions. Every additional month the war lasts means Russia is less and less of a military threat to other western countries. Plus they get to expunge all their massive stockpiles of aging weapons and ammo by sending it all to Ukraine which frees up the Pentagon and other NATO countries to go on a shopping spree and buy new stuff. Kind of like taking all your old stuff to Good Will and then shopping for new stuff.

[Josh]

Yes, allies and friends like China and India (who certainly aren’t in the West’s pocket; our alliances are Taiwan and Pakistan) mean nothing, Ken

I realise you want to believe that Putin is Hitler and that the Russians are Nazis. It just happens that your belief is entirely incorrect.

[Ken]

Yes, allies and friends like China and India (who certainly aren’t in the West’s pocket; our alliances are Taiwan and Pakistan) mean nothing, Ken

I realise you want to believe that Putin is Hitler and that the Russians are Nazis. It just happens that your belief is entirely incorrect.

China hasn't lifted a finger to support Russia's war efforts. And neither has India. Other than buy Russian oil at fire sale prices. Neither of them are recognizing Russia's fake referendum and annexation. Not even traditional Russian allies like Serbia and Kazakhstan are willing to go that far. What China is actually doing is patiently wait while Russia immolates itself and then will expand its influence in Central Asia. Countries like Kazakhstan are slipping away from Russia and into the Chinese sphere as this war progresses.

No, I don't believe Putin is Hitler and the Russians are Nazis. I do believe they are egregiously wrong to have started this war and are behaving not much differently than the Germans when they invaded Ukraine. Every rollback of Russian occupation reveals more mass graves, torture chambers, and other war crimes to numerous to count. And Russia continues to endlessly and deliberately target Ukrainian civilians with missile attacks.

And the fact that they are apparently threatening nuclear war puts them beyond the pale. Do you support a policy of mass murder in Europe on the scale not seen since WW2? To what end? To prop up Putin's ego? This was entirely a war of choice on the part of Putin. And the fact that they are even contemplating threatening Ukraine with nuclear retaliation now that the tide has turned puts them far outside any claim to be a civilized nation.

Honestly this war is likely to go down in history as the worst foreign policy and military debacle since Paraguay insanely declared simultaneous war against Argentina, Brazil, and Uruguay in the war of the Triple Alliance and suffered a death rate of over 60% of their total population and something like 90% of their men of fighting age.

[Josh]

Ken,

This war started with Nuland’s Orange Revolution decades ago.

You need to read sources beside just Western propaganda.

[Ken]

Ken,

This war started with Nuland’s Orange Revolution decades ago.

You need to read sources beside just Western propaganda.

What, you aren't dating it back to the 1919 Soviet invasion of Ukraine? Or the Russo-Polish war of 1654?

The fact of that matter is that Putin had a choice back in the morning of February 24, 2022. He could have chosen to seek a negotiated settlement of whatever claims and grievances he believed that Russia had with respect to Ukraine. Or he could choose the path of unprovoked aggression and military invasion.

He chose poorly.

[Josh]

Ken,

This war started with Nuland’s Orange Revolution decades ago.

You need to read sources beside just Western propaganda.

What, you aren't dating it back to the 1919 Soviet invasion of Ukraine? Or the Russo-Polish war of 1654?

The fact of that matter is that Putin had a choice back in the morning of February 24, 2022. He could have chosen to seek a negotiated settlement of whatever claims and grievances he believed that Russia had with respect to Ukraine. Or he could choose the path of unprovoked aggression and military invasion.

He chose poorly.

The West already agreed not to expand NATO to Russia’s borders, specifically, not to Ukraine. The west decided to just break all their prior promises and attempt to overthrow the governments in places like Ukraine and install western puppets.

I’m not sure what other result the West expected.

[Ken]

Ken,

This war started with Nuland’s Orange Revolution decades ago.

You need to read sources beside just Western propaganda.

What, you aren't dating it back to the 1919 Soviet invasion of Ukraine? Or the Russo-Polish war of 1654?

The fact of that matter is that Putin had a choice back in the morning of February 24, 2022. He could have chosen to seek a negotiated settlement of whatever claims and grievances he believed that Russia had with respect to Ukraine. Or he could choose the path of unprovoked aggression and military invasion.

He chose poorly.

The West already agreed not to expand NATO to Russia’s borders, specifically, not to Ukraine. The west decided to just break all their prior promises and attempt to overthrow the governments in places like Ukraine and install western puppets.

I’m not sure what other result the West expected.

And yet Putin's actions actually let to that exact result when Finland and Sweden decided to join NATO in the wake of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Not to mention the fact that every single NATO country is now busy sending all its old stuff to Ukraine and exploding all their military budgets to replace it all with new stuff.

This will go down as one of the biggest own-goals in geopolitical history. Russia single-handedly made NATO relevant again. The planned increases in military spending across NATO in the wake of the Ukraine invasion exceed Russia's entire military budget. And that is just the increases. NATO was already 10x larger.

Russia has given the western military industrial complex an absolutely MASSIVE infusion. And no, I don't think that is a good thing. I'd rather see western economic resources spent on just about anything else other than weaponry. But it is the predictable consequence of Putin's decision to start a war in Ukraine. I would imagine corporate executives from Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, and General Dynamics are all toasting Putin's decision to invade. He is their best salesman since Saddam Hussein.

[temporal1]

The West already agreed not to expand NATO to Russia’s borders, specifically, not to Ukraine.

The west decided to just break all their prior promises and attempt to overthrow the governments in places like Ukraine and install western puppets.

I’m not sure what other result the West expected.

Years before Feb 24 2022, actual diplomats warned. Literally and eloquently.
DJT counseled Zelensky to find a workable path.

In the Russia/Ukraine thread, Mearsheimer was referenced soon after Feb 24. He broke the problems down into bite-sized pieces.
Ignored. http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... er#p152048

It’s diffcult to not conclude the Left West wasn’t .. more than, let’s say, “preparing for defense”.

POKE THE BEAR
.. to intentionally make or try to make someone angry or offended, especially someone more powerful than you:
He attacked his colleagues for not wanting to poke the bear, referring to them not wanting to confront the president.

passive aggressive acts aren’t always against a peer or superior. the ugliest form is antagonizing the weaker, more vulnerable, until they become so aptly frustrated that they are willing to lash out, in spite of personal costs. it can be tragic.

then the bullies stand back, point fingers, blame others. a big factor in this ugly world-level playground game.