Understanding Putin- Ukraine

[Valerie]

Back to the OP of an apologetic written to justify Kirill's support of Putin: the latest news is that the Russian Orthodox clergy are sharply divided on Kirill's unstinting support of Putin. Likely this Scottish Orthodox priest was also producing this as a PR piece to convince any dissidents in the ranks.

In other words, you don't believe him in his reasons and understanding of this? By the way he is not the only one that sees it that way I just posted his long explanation because of how some do see it. The rest of us are speculating

I think the Scottish priest may believe it. Or perhaps he sees it as a means of climbing the ranks by currying favor with Kirill/Putin. I feel it is important to understand motivations for such behaviors. These behaviors have been seen before whenever PR is needed for damage control, especially when rationalisations are needed for aggression and war such as that being committed by Putin.

That was a pretty wild guess, & that is not how Orthodox "ranks" work -

[temporal1]

Valerie,
Thanks for sharing your OP.
It’s important, and a gift, really, to recognize different views, esp in cases of military conflict, violence, loss of life.
Agreed or not, recognizing the humanity of opponents is important; it’s so much easier and more comfortable to see things in black+white, and, certainly, leaders in conflict very much want black+white.

Interesting responses, too.

[MaxPC]

In other words, you don't believe him in his reasons and understanding of this? By the way he is not the only one that sees it that way I just posted his long explanation because of how some do see it. The rest of us are speculating

I think the Scottish priest may believe it. Or perhaps he sees it as a means of climbing the ranks by currying favor with Kirill/Putin. I feel it is important to understand motivations for such behaviors. These behaviors have been seen before whenever PR is needed for damage control, especially when rationalisations are needed for aggression and war such as that being committed by Putin.

That was a pretty wild guess, & that is not how Orthodox "ranks" work -

Valerie, I see you are feeling defensive which is most likely why you did not recognise the use of the idiom "climbing the ranks". FWIW There are indeed levels of responsibility with accompanying privileges within Russian Orthodox circles. Case in point: Kirill's titles/ranks of Patriarch, Primate and Archbishop affords him privileges of authority.

There is also a great deal of disagreement among ROC clergy about Putin's actions and by extension about Kirill himself. Kirill is a faithful ally of Putin and refers to Putin's administration as a "miracle of God".

It is indeed important to listen to different views about your posts that you choose to publicise. If you did not want feedback, you would have been better advised to forgo posting articles such as these. I stand by my assessment based upon many years of experience within and without church circles. These men are human and as such, are prone to the temptations of ambitions and biases.

[Valerie]

I think the Scottish priest may believe it. Or perhaps he sees it as a means of climbing the ranks by currying favor with Kirill/Putin. I feel it is important to understand motivations for such behaviors. These behaviors have been seen before whenever PR is needed for damage control, especially when rationalisations are needed for aggression and war such as that being committed by Putin.

That was a pretty wild guess, & that is not how Orthodox "ranks" work -

Valerie, I see you are feeling defensive which is most likely why you did not recognise the use of the idiom "climbing the ranks". FWIW There are indeed levels of responsibility with accompanying privileges within Russian Orthodox circles. Case in point: Kirill's titles/ranks of Patriarch, Primate and Archbishop affords him privileges of authority.

There is also a great deal of disagreement among ROC clergy about Putin's actions and by extension about Kirill himself. Kirill is a faithful ally of Putin and refers to Putin's administration as a "miracle of God".

It is indeed important to listen to different views about your posts that you choose to publicise. If you did not want feedback, you would have been better advised to forgo posting articles such as these. I stand by my assessment based upon many years of experience within and without church circles. These men are human and as such, are prone to the temptations of ambitions and biases.

I understand what you were saying Max, I need no defense I'm not personally involved in this I shared an article for a different point of view because the more I've read about Ukraine and its leaders (and after seeing the president of Ukraine dressed up transgender and high heel shoes dancing around) the more concerns I have over the spiritual atmosphere in that country. What I objected to was the implication of the motivation of the heart of the Scottish priest who shared this post, and there are people in the Orthodox Church who do agree with this point of view and there are people who don't.

If I was to defend the direction of the two countries spiritually I would defend what Russia is attempting to do they put Christianity back in schools they are moving a direction towards their spiritual Roots when the country became christian. They've had to rise from the ashes about communism try to destroy, Christianity but it did not. Ukraine on the other hand is moving the opposite direction promoting lgbtq. Russia will not allow gay pride they have not of course rid the nation of sin because of personal choice but they are moving in the right direction.

Actually it was another priest I know personally who saw this similarly which caused me to not jump to conclusions like the rest of the West is doing.

[MaxPC]

That was a pretty wild guess, & that is not how Orthodox "ranks" work -

Valerie, I see you are feeling defensive which is most likely why you did not recognise the use of the idiom "climbing the ranks". FWIW There are indeed levels of responsibility with accompanying privileges within Russian Orthodox circles. Case in point: Kirill's titles/ranks of Patriarch, Primate and Archbishop affords him privileges of authority.

There is also a great deal of disagreement among ROC clergy about Putin's actions and by extension about Kirill himself. Kirill is a faithful ally of Putin and refers to Putin's administration as a "miracle of God".

It is indeed important to listen to different views about your posts that you choose to publicise. If you did not want feedback, you would have been better advised to forgo posting articles such as these. I stand by my assessment based upon many years of experience within and without church circles. These men are human and as such, are prone to the temptations of ambitions and biases.

I understand what you were saying Max, I need no defense I'm not personally involved in this I shared an article for a different point of view because the more I've read about Ukraine and its leaders (and after seeing the president of Ukraine dressed up transgender and high heel shoes dancing around) the more concerns I have over the spiritual atmosphere in that country. What I objected to was the implication of the motivation of the heart of the Scottish priest who shared this post, and there are people in the Orthodox Church who do agree with this point of view and there are people who don't.

If I was to defend the direction of the two countries spiritually I would defend what Russia is attempting to do they put Christianity back in schools they are moving a direction towards their spiritual Roots when the country became christian. They've had to rise from the ashes about communism try to destroy, Christianity but it did not. Ukraine on the other hand is moving the opposite direction promoting lgbtq. Russia will not allow gay pride they have not of course rid the nation of sin because of personal choice but they are moving in the right direction.

Actually it was another priest I know personally who saw this similarly which caused me to not jump to conclusions like the rest of the West is doing.

Valerie, frankly the divisions and propaganda within and without the ROC cast such long shadows that it will be difficult to suss out the truth of the matter.

Nevertheless no institution nor government is so completely full of virtue that it can justify the launch of a wholesale violent invasion of another country (e.g. Ukraine) that has not been overtaking other nations. As Russia is the violent aggressor in this (indeed there are more than enough facts to identify Russia as such), I think it makes for a poor rationale on Russia's part to claim moral superiority and certitude over the Ukraine. If that logic were to be followed, then Russia could also self-righteously invade most of Europe without guilt. As we all know, that would be both travesty and a world war.

[Neto]

Nevertheless no institution nor government is so completely full of virtue that it can justify the launch of a wholesale violent invasion of another country (e.g. Ukraine) that has not been overtaking other nations. As Russia is the violent aggressor in this (indeed there are more than enough facts to identify Russia as such), I think it makes for a poor rationale on Russia's part to claim moral superiority and certitude over the Ukraine. If that logic were to be followed, then Russia could also self-righteously invade most of Europe without guilt. As we all know, that would be both travesty and a world war.

Meanwhile, Russia's best friends are China, Iran, and North Korea. What does that say?

[Josh]

Nevertheless no institution nor government is so completely full of virtue that it can justify the launch of a wholesale violent invasion of another country (e.g. Ukraine) that has not been overtaking other nations. As Russia is the violent aggressor in this (indeed there are more than enough facts to identify Russia as such), I think it makes for a poor rationale on Russia's part to claim moral superiority and certitude over the Ukraine. If that logic were to be followed, then Russia could also self-righteously invade most of Europe without guilt. As we all know, that would be both travesty and a world war.

Meanwhile, Russia's best friends are China, Iran, and North Korea. What does that say?

Is there something wrong with these countries compared to Saudi Arabia, the United States, Canada, and Israel?

[Neto]

Nevertheless no institution nor government is so completely full of virtue that it can justify the launch of a wholesale violent invasion of another country (e.g. Ukraine) that has not been overtaking other nations. As Russia is the violent aggressor in this (indeed there are more than enough facts to identify Russia as such), I think it makes for a poor rationale on Russia's part to claim moral superiority and certitude over the Ukraine. If that logic were to be followed, then Russia could also self-righteously invade most of Europe without guilt. As we all know, that would be both travesty and a world war.

Meanwhile, Russia's best friends are China, Iran, and North Korea. What does that say?

Is there something wrong with these countries compared to Saudi Arabia, the United States, Canada, and Israel?

Two are communist governments. The other is controlled by extreme Islam. As a country that repudiated communism and persecutes Islamic peoples in their own sphere of influence, Russia is a sort of odd one in that group.

Edit to add: (Well, yes, China also persecutes Islamic peoples. I don't know about North Korea, but I wouldn't be surprised.)

[temporal1]

Meanwhile, Russia's best friends are China, Iran, and North Korea. What does that say?

Alliances often have nothing to do with friendship.

i’ve been thinking about this quote from General Patton:

“We defeated the wrong enemy.” Gen Patton, Berlin 1945

.. After the end of the Second World War, general George S. Patton said that America defeated the wrong enemy.
I've heard that he wanted America to ally National Socialist Germany in order to destroy the U.S.S.R.

For Christians, the enemy is sin/Satan.

1 Corinthians 15:57
https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-57.htm

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

58Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast and immovable.
Always excel in the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.…

we persist in thinking too small. even Patton was thinking too small.

[temporal1]

i believe:
1) Russia was wrong to choose a military invasion.
2) Ukraine has 2 wolves at their door.

i pray for resolution.

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i won’t dignify this with a link:

“Nancy Pelosi proudly says she told President Zelenskyy that Billie Jean King sends her regards”

no bottom to their pit.

Russia versus the Left-West. What a decision!